What will happen if I use family childcare when its not allowed?

[OccasionalGPHelp]

DD is 7, when she was 3 ExH took me to court for full residency, he fully admitted he didn’t want her to live with him but his mum did and was paying for him to go through court – this was all backed up by letters she sent SS about me demanding full residency for herself and text messages she sent to me telling me I’d “have to learn to live without my daughter as I’d never see her again”.

Because of this ExH was stopped from using any kind of childcare. He lived with his mum at the time, he’s not even allowed to leave her alone with his mum. He no longer lives with his mum but still has contact there due to his own circumstances.

He would only agree to me keeping full residency if I only use paid for childcare, at the time DD was in Nursery right near my house and I had a job that was only 2 days a week so I never imagined not using family would be a problem.

Fast forward 4 years and my DD does an after school activity. It’s usually a night I don’t work but I have a different job now that occasionally asks me to do overtime on that night. If I’m working my mum picks DD up from school, gets her ready for her activity, takes her and then I pick her up.

My solicitor seems to think that the benefits of the activity outweigh the legal position of using family childcare so in court I’d be allowed to use my mum for childcare reasons for this activity. On all the other nights DD is in either ASC or I am not working so pick her up as normal – she occasionally does an extra night in ASC if I work on a night I don’t normally. So far since I got the job in June my mums done this twice, the activity stops during school holidays so it’s twice in about 12 sessions since June.

For added context I don’t live with my mum and apart from when I first split with ExH where I’d spend 1-2 nights a week there for a rest I never have, she absolutely loves being a grandparent but that’s as far as it goes. She says she enjoys handing DD back at the end of the day. Whereas Ex-MIL still asks me if I want to let her “help me” more often and has tried to go to court with me twice herself for 50/50 contact.

CAO gives ExH EOW contact for 1 night.

Is my solicitor right if it did go back to court it would be ruled in my favour?

Who agreed ex could call the shots here?

Technically is it childcare if your Mum is just picking her up from school and getting her ready for the activity. I would just trust your solicitor in this matter.

@Brollywasntneededafterall

Who agreed ex could call the shots here?

My solicitor advised me to give him that one request so that we got more of what we wanted in court which is how it worked out. The judge praised me for my stance and ability to compromise.

I would say that isn’t childcare, it’s just grandma helping out.

• it isn’t regular
• you are still paying for your regular childcare (ASC)
• it doesn’t circumvent the intent of the original order (your mum isn’t intending parental alienation and 50% custody by stealth)
• if your ex makes a deal of it and you get a solicitor’s letter you can reply by explaining the above and have the choice of disagreeing with his argument but choosing to stop the arrangement to avoid a return to court; or digging your heels in and going to court.

So glad they didn’t get away with their original plans.

@Viviennemary

Technically is it childcare if your Mum is just picking her up from school and getting her ready for the activity. I would just trust your solicitor in this matter.

She feeds her as well but only the same sorts of things as ASC do so toast, crumpets, soup, fruit etc.

@LightDrizzle

I would say that isn’t childcare, it’s just grandma helping out.

• it isn’t regular
• you are still paying for your regular childcare (ASC)
• it doesn’t circumvent the intent of the original order (your mum isn’t intending parental alienation and 50% custody by stealth)
• if your ex makes a deal of it and you get a solicitor’s letter you can reply by explaining the above and have the choice of disagreeing with his argument but choosing to stop the arrangement to avoid a return to court; or digging your heels in and going to court.

So glad they didn’t get away with their original plans.

Thank you, yes thats makes sense and your right.

It depends on the precise wording of the order. I wouldn't second guess my solicitor by asking random strangers on a public message board to be honest with you.

@Collaborate

It depends on the precise wording of the order. I wouldn't second guess my solicitor by asking random strangers on a public message board to be honest with you.

Wording is

"Applicant Father will not us any kind of childcare, paid for or otherwise.

Respondent mother may use paid for childcare in the event of work or other needs to which she may require (DDs name) to be cared for"

Pay your mum?

@merryhouse

Pay your mum?

Wouldn't she need to be registered for that?

Yeah, I believe she’d need to be registered to be paid, unless it’s all changed since I stopped doing much with childcare.

She feeds her as well but only the same sorts of things as ASC do so toast, crumpets, soup, fruit etc.

Does that need to happen?

*"Applicant Father will not us any kind of childcare, paid for or otherwise.

Respondent mother may use paid for childcare in the event of work or other needs to which she may require (DDs name) to be cared for"*

That’s pretty clear. Really your options are to use paid for childcare - a regular babysitter? - or trust your solicitor that while you’re breaching the order, the court is likely to rule in your favour. None of us can really comment on her opinion, we don’t have access to all the information that she has.

@TakeYourFinalPosition

Yeah, I believe she’d need to be registered to be paid, unless it’s all changed since I stopped doing much with childcare.

She feeds her as well but only the same sorts of things as ASC do so toast, crumpets, soup, fruit etc.

Does that need to happen?

*"Applicant Father will not us any kind of childcare, paid for or otherwise.

Respondent mother may use paid for childcare in the event of work or other needs to which she may require (DDs name) to be cared for"*

That’s pretty clear. Really your options are to use paid for childcare - a regular babysitter? - or trust your solicitor that while you’re breaching the order, the court is likely to rule in your favour. None of us can really comment on her opinion, we don’t have access to all the information that she has.

Mum doesn't really need to feed DD, but she likes to but I could ask her to stop if it'll cause arguments.

It's not childcare, it's spending time with Grandma

I have no legal knowledge but just wanted to say what a crazy agreement! So because your Ex's mother went mad with a custody battle, your own mother loses the option to spend time looking after her grandchild? Bonkers.

The restrictions that applies to you doesn't explicitly mention paid or otherwise (free) childcare whereas your Ex's restrictions do. Since you are not excluded from using paid or free childcare based on what you've posted it looks ok to use your mum.

However your solicitor knows best so trust them.

It doesn't say you can't use unpaid childcare though?

@WeepySheepy

It doesn't say you can't use unpaid childcare though?

No mention in the actual order but it's in the court bundles as one of ExHs requests, I don't know whether that counts? I was always under the assumption I could only use paid childcare.

What happens if your mum wants to take your daughter for a day out shopping/cinema/sleepover - is that allowed?

@nancy75

What happens if your mum wants to take your daughter for a day out shopping/cinema/sleepover - is that allowed?

I've never tested it, if my mum wants to take my DD out I go with them. Its madness now I think about it.

Whatever the legal rights and wrongs I would imagine that if your ex gets wind of this he will consider that you have broken the agreement. So I guess in your shoes I would try to think through how he might respond to that.

Would he take you back to court? Would he say "sod it, the agreement's broken so I no longer have to follow it anymore"? Or is he the kind of man who would whinge but then basically do nothing?

Wow so can you never leave your child with anyone else for a play or party? Your mum can never see her alone because your ex has a loon for a mum? Seems bizarre and harsh

That's very oddly ambiguous wording. I wouldn't consider a child spending time with a grandparent whether that's being picked up and taken home after an activity or going out shopping for the day as 'childcare' just the child spending time with their family.

'Childcare' implies a regular pattern of sole care to enable the parent to work whilst the child is in their custody. Surprised it's not been spelled out as the way it's written does not actually prevent the MiL looking after the child really.

So you can't have your mum to babysit if you go out for the evening? No going to friends' houses for tea after school? No sleepovers at granny's, ever?? No sleepovers at friends houses, brownie camps, school residential?.
Is there any chance you can update the order to cover circumstances such as these? Kids lives are quite flexible and your order sounds like your ex (or his mum) could use it rigidly against you.

I think going back to court for clarity would help now she is older. What if she wants to spend a day with her friends, is that unpaid childcare? Mine often go home with a friend and then off to an activity.

@NotDavidTennant

Whatever the legal rights and wrongs I would imagine that if your ex gets wind of this he will consider that you have broken the agreement. So I guess in your shoes I would try to think through how he might respond to that.

Would he take you back to court? Would he say "sod it, the agreement's broken so I no longer have to follow it anymore"? Or is he the kind of man who would whinge but then basically do nothing?

I'm more worried about if Ex-MIL gets wind of it. I'm willing to compromise with ExH but not let her be left with Ex-MIL (due to the risk of alienation from me) but I'd be willing for one of ExHs siblings or one of his cousins who have DC to look after DD for a couple of hours during his contact time.