Breach of Court Order / ex partner took DD away

[beingniceiscool11]

My DD's father has taken DD (5) on holiday (in this country) in absence of agreement between ourselves - despite me telling him for many reasons (safeguarding and the fact our DD has additional needs) that I could not agree to a 7 nights holiday at this time. Is he is breaching the court order if he keeps her there any longer than I have agreed? I have made it clear I do not agree any longer than 4 nights, 5 days. He's refusing to confirm that I can pick her up though.

He has breached the court order quite a few times; obstructing DD having indirect contact with me when he has taken her away before. Not notifying me of where they are or that he had taken her away.

He has already once taken her away this year without agreement from me and he again did not given indication of exactly when he would bring her back... only finally agreeing at the end of 2 or 3 days so that he has control and power the whole time.

He ignores the parts of court order that he doesn't like, and then he'll quote it to me word for word to enforce what he wants eg. wants me to be flexible about timing when he needs to, but then will quote the exact time on court order if I need flexibility. I have not stopped being flexible and compromising myself though.

Court order states half holidays with each parent & parents must agree how. I recently since sent a suggestion for summer holidays that is in line with court order, means DD gets quality time with both of us over the summer holidays, and that we share her care throughout holidays as per court order, and that she doesn't spend too long away from each parent. He says no. We cannot agree so he has filed court proceedings again.
My view is that he is deliberately trying to make it "difficult for us to agree" to encourage the court, I believe, to make an order of what he wants. Citing the reason that it's too difficult for us to agree. But that is masking the safeguarding issues which are the reasons why I won't agree to long stays with her in his sole care. Making it look like we are just bickering. When the issues are much more serious and based on DD's welfare in actuality.

The matter isn't back in court until after summer holidays anyway now, but as it stands, our DD doesn't know when she will see me again currently. She has been very distressed by this in the past and it does seem like he does everything he can to erase me from her memory whilst she's with him and he engages in alienating tactics as well, such as saying bad things about me to her and making fun of me to her - (again breaching court order but no proof only DD's word to me when she's been upset about this).

Can I call the police local to where he is to ask them to support me to pick her up after 4 nights 5 days (which is the longest I'm comfortable to agree she can be there with him)?
What do we do if we can't agree over the rest of the summer? I am seriously worried he will use the long periods of time with her away from me to further brainwash her, deny her indirect contact, continue breaching court order, being emotionally abusive and physically abusive as he has been before if he loses his temper or if he's angry with me for not agreeing and he is in a bad mood that DD will get the brunt of it.

We have tried mediation in the past and he just uses it as a way to pressure me further to agree to what he wants and he doesn't compromise.

What can I do legally? Thanks so much in advance

You’ve got several similar threads from earlier in the year. The advice you’ve received has all been similar. If he loves control, so do you. You want to be in control of when he sees her and for how long. I’m sure you have some legitimate concerns. I’m not surprised you feel anxious. And. The court has said contact can go ahead. It has ordered the contact you agreed by consent. CAFCASS felt this level of contact was right.
As I said before if you carry on down this path you could end up with even less contact than now.

@MissMalice I understand what you’re saying.. my desire for control of the situation is to protect my daughter though. This is what you do when you’re dealing with an abuser & forced to co-parent with them.. the abuser gets to carry on with abusive behaviour, no one will help you.. so you do your best to control situation so you feel you’ve done something to protect your DD.... what else am I supposed to do?
When she’s older and she asks me “but Mummy I told you Daddy hurt me why did you keep sending me” ? I just say well... nothing I could do sorry... there were no bruises so... no one helped you.. ??

Re CAFCASS / should they not now get the chance to assess the risk now in light of new disclosures and my DD’s additional needs now diagnosed.. surely that makes situation different ? Cafcass seemed it safe based on the fact there was a low level of domestic abuse, and that DD made disclosures 2 yeas prior to the Section 7. They said well things might be different now, give it a chance. Which I did. And now she’s saying similar things again as she did when she was 2 years old. So there re new disclosures and new info to consider.

Or should I lie... and not tick the box in the response form to the c100 that he sent, where it says “domestic abuse” and other concerns ? It asks you “ do you have concerns of any of these...” and should I just not tick that box ? Not air any of concerns now he has taken it back to court ?
They will ask me why I feel he shouldn’t have her extra nights and why I feel that the indirect contact should not be removed from court order (as he is asking)

Surely I have to give my reasons?

I’m so conflicted because people say well if you are so concerned why agree to 4/5 nights. I say yes I am concerned, I don’t want to agree to that but if I don’t I will be breaking court order.

SS say “take it back to court, this is concerning but it’s your job to as her parent, not ours, it’s for the court to deal with, not us”

Solicitors and court will say “well why aren’t SS involved, can’t be that serious if they’re not getting involved”

SS say that it doesn’t mean it’s not serious it’s just not life and death, which is why it’s the courts job to deal with it.

CAFCASS said it was SS job and they should have investigated at the time DD made disclosures (they didn’t as he was having supervised contact which they deemed safe considering) once he refused to do supervised anymore I informed SS ... you guessed it ... SS said it was CAFCASS ‘ job. CAFCASS when doing section 7 said SS should have investigated.

And so on and so on.

I get told - take it back to court (he has anyway himself so now I’m just respondent)

Then I’m told here if I take it back to court I will look like I’m trying to control contact and he’ll likely get even more time with her.

It’s chicken and egg. Everyone passing the buck in a circle.....

???

As I and other have said, I think you have a low chance of getting the changes you seek. The court cannot act on allegations of abuse with no proof. Believe me I absolutely know the frustrations of no one listening when it’s psychological abuse. I have lived that for the last six years.

If there are no marks or bruises, it may fall until reasonable chastisement.

You need to find a solicitor who can see the full details and present your case in the most favourable way for your position.

My experience of concerns being raised with SS and them saying it’s a private matter is that the family court then says SS have assessed and found no concern to act upon.

Honestly I think it’s because it’s simply not bad enough or you don’t have enough proof of what’s happening for them to alter the arrangements. That’s what it comes down to. And you do come across to me as controlling - because of concerns but controlling nonetheless.

Sometimes you have to accept that this is what’s going to happen and work on resilience instead. You’ve raised the concerns already to multiple agencies and they’ve all said contact can happen. 1 night, 4 nights, 7 nights is all irrelevant. He’s either safe or not. The various agencies say he’s safe enough. You have to find some way to live with it.

@MissMalice thanks for your perspective.. it’s all just very disheartening. Abusers allowed to get away with things because people do not see a child disclosure as proof.
DD did make disclosure to GP as well GP called SS to get advice as she was concerned .. they said same to GP - Mother’s job to return matter to court.
If I return to court they say exactly what you said - well SS have assessed and found no concern to act upon. Although they did not investigate. Just told me it’s my job to safeguard my DD.
But if that means stopping her seeing her Dad at all until concerns investigated then I’m breaking court order and deemed to be controlling Mother.

There’s no way to protect my DD then ? Just leave her to it?

Or do I say to SS look she has said this.. and I will not be returning it court and I will not take on the role of safeguarding my daughter. Not my job either/ I can’t.

Is that what I say?

Just ignoring what my DD has said and send her off with him for 7 days? When she’s distressed after.. ignore her distress ?

When we bumped into each other at an event when he had DD in his weekend, DD was clingy with me and wanted to cuddle me and spend time with me, I was trying to let her do her thing and not interfere with his weekend so I said hello and hugged her & carried on talking to friends in another area of the event. She kept coming to find me & her Father was following her around whenever she came to me & saying “why is she being so clingy with you? Is this normal? Tell her to go play with her friends. Encourage her to go off. Does she usually do this???” Literally helicopter parenting micromanaging her every interaction with me. I tried to ignore his comments ... he was literally telling me how to parent and undermining her wanting to cuddle me in front of DD

This made me feel very sad for your child

Quite honestly, in that scenario I would have left and said that mummy had to go shopping.

No matter how much I wanted to stay. The confusion for the poor thing.

You can’t change her father. You can change your response

No, you seek legal advice and have the solicitor present it in the most favourable way.

And if that doesn’t work you help her build resilience against what you consider to be inadequate parenting (but objectively may be good enough).

@Amibeingdaft81 yes I did exactly this, I said to her go on have fun with your friend I have to leave to take dog for lunch as dog is hungry now ! But said lovely to see you, have fun! I just stayed cheery but wasn’t clinging to her myself.

@Amibeingdaft81 he messaged me after saying DD was absolutely fine before she saw me and after I left and that “we really need to address the issues you’re having with her that make her act this way”

Everything he twists around, everything is someone else’s fault. And he never looks at his own behaviour or realises perhaps forcing DD to be away from her Mum longer than she is comfortable with, with no indirect contact either.... is perhaps what is causing some of DD’s “issues” ....

... well as well as having a Jekyll and Hyde Dad who is super fun one minute and super scary the next. Maybe that’s why she’s showing distress.. attachment issues.. anxiety etc . She doesn’t know whether she’s coming or going and he’s not allowing her to be herself & develop her own identity. He’s just complete obsessed with possessing her and showing her off at events and trips with his friends.. no matter how tired, overstimulated or distressed at the end of it, that it makes her.

Hi OP,
I get where you're coming from - I have a similar ex, someone who can't see a boundary without wanting to trample all over it. Just to hold out a note of hope - I did in the end get contact time reduced. What swung it was having third party professionals also expressing concern about the things exH was saying to DD. She made a disclosure that I wasn't even aware of to the school, who independently referred it to SS as a safeguarding concern.

Courts really struggle with he said- she said, so my best advice is make sure that the school knows about your concerns, and if they are observing distress on her part, they may be able to flag up their concerns too.

Sorry it doesn't help you short-term, but all you can do is try to manage your fears for now, but be able to act promptly if and when they are realised.

This sounds such a strong case of he said she said. You think he is an abuser and he thinks you are acting much too over protective.

The thing is you can have it both ways, saying that your DD is not safe with him over 4 days but is up to these days because if you disagreed and acted on it, you'd be braking the court order.

The reality is that if you think she is at risk with him on day 5, she is as much at risk on day 3. So either you take on a full battle with the court and SS to prove your concerns or you a cept thst 4 or 6 days won't make a difference to her safety. The way you are going about it doesn't give you credence and therefore make you come across as controlling and manipulative.

I am feeling very discouraged by this entire thread.... Feel like there is no point even sticking up for what I believe is best for DD and protecting her. Because I will be painted as a controlling, manipulative mother, chastised by the court just as my ex is hoping. And as the abuser will again be validated. And our DD will continue to suffer and not be listened to by grown ups who are supposed to protect her. Abusive parenting is apparently fine some of the time. Fine to be abused sometimes. Just as long as it's not every day and there's no visible bruises or debilitating psychological illness immediately resulting.

Perhaps I should just say nothing in court. No position statement. Not tick any boxes about domestic abuse concerns. Turn up without a lawyer and stand there and say nothing.

I don't think he's abusive, I know he's abusive. He was abusive to me throughout our relationship. As soon as I moved in with him and he got comfortable it started. Sadly (or not because I love my DD), I was pregnant 4 months later. I was very vulnerable and grieving a friend who died and I kept giving him benefit of the doubt, making excuses for him to myself, in denial, constantly questioning if it was really me that was "making him" act that was as he had gaslit me so heavily. I was severely traumatised by the relationship and it has taken me years to gain strength and heal. I'd just about got enough strength to try and set healthy boundaries and stand up for DD, but he trampled all over them and used court system to continue his manipulation and control.

I hoped he would never be abusive to DD but he has been, I have seen him take his aggression/anger at me out on her as a baby. I left him when she was 1 year old.

He is not "thinking I am being over protective" he is LYING to cover his own behaviour. He knows what he has done is wrong and deep down he is ashamed of himself but he won't admit it and get help, instead he lies, denies and continues his pattern, covering up his behaviour by pointing finger at me about all manner of things and creating monthly or weekly co-parenting dramas (continuing emotional abuse and control of me) so that I am too confused, tired and stressed to speak up. Meanwhile I am handed back a disregulated, clingy, upset, emotionally fragile child and need to spend most of the days she is with me, calming her back to her "normal" self. Before she just goes back to him and the cycle repeats.
If I try and stand up to him and raise what DD has said to him, he threatens he will take me back to court and ask for more time with her and that "I won't get things going the way I want them, just like last time."

And he has done exactly that, because he is so arrogant. charming and so confident that he will not get found out, he keeps quoting that "social service have NO safeguarding concerns about me", he has gotten even more confident that he will not be found out because SS and CAFCASS have basically validated him and said he's not a risk because they didn't believe me that DD would have said those things aged 2. Now we have a Speech & Language assessment that says she speaks and communicates like an 8 year old (when she was 4) which backs up every nursery report and every Health Visitor check which always said her speech is advanced for her age.
I believe DD. I know it happened and it has happened again since, and it will happen again. He is so confident though because he "got what he wanted" and was backed up by CAFCASS in court last time, so he thinks that this time around again he will be able to paint me as "the crazy one" and himself as the victim and reasonable one. Which he loves and lives for. This makes him feel important - to get people to feel sorry for him and punish me for leaving him and exposing him. He cannot bear to not have control of the situation and takes any chance he gets to punish me.... DD gets his rage and bullying and gaslighting too.

I guess I'll just give the names of the CAFCASS officers to her when she's 26 and dealing with therapy for all the trauma she has from having a Father doing these things to her, and no-one protecting her.
And I'll just say sorry darling I couldn't protect you as otherwise I faced going to prison or having you taken away from me and placed with your abusive father full-time.

Shall I just wait for all the documentaries and press in 20 years time looking back on how the family courts failed victims of domestic abuse and child abuse that fell through the cracks. And my daughter's childhood and development is marred by his bullying, brainwashing, gaslighting..... All the talking heads of ex CAFCASS workers and lawyers saying "yes it's really sad but the thing is there just wasn't the funding...and the judges didn't have the training to recognise...there wasn't enough known about... the awareness was not at the level it is today back then...." Such a shame.

Another futile round of family court where my daughter's voice is lost and not listened to...purely because I am her advocate. And her Mother. God forbid a Mother should be heard and taken seriously when relaying what her child has said. Just because a handful of women have made false accusations and thresholds for SS are ridiculously high. No amount of child abuse is ok. In safeguarding guidelines it says ALWAYS take what a child has said seriously. And they're not. They don't.

OP

This might seem brutal but in your dealings with social services and courts I think our need to try and

A) cut down what you say to make what you say as relevant as possible. On the basis of this thread, you have a propensity to go off on tangents which ultimately dilute or detail the points you are trying to make
2) you use very emotive language and your contempt for your ex seeps through. Clearly you hate him and on the basis of what you have told us - you have every right to hate him. And yet somehow it does seem that you have a major grudge against him.

Unless the court order changes - I am afraid that you are going to have to accept he will very likely be permitted to take his child on a 7 night holiday

A) and B)!

@Amibeingdaft81 yes I know I do the tangent thing.... It's such an emotive subject... I need to work on that big time ! Thank you.

I really don't hate him. I hate his behaviour. I honestly feel very sad for him and very sorry for him . I wish he behaved differently and could get some help for the beliefs or needs he has to control/bully etc...

I feel very sad that he can't behave differently for our daughter. He has many good points as a person and I wish that she would just get the best of him and not be hurt, frightened or manipulated by him as she grows up, as she has been.
Sadly his abusive actions far outweigh any good and are very damaging to his victims - the people closest to him who he takes out his rage upon.

Sadly his abusive actions far outweigh any good

That is only your opinion. CAFCASS and the court have disagreed with you.

him being physically abusive to her & his displaying alienating behaviours - being negative about her relationship with me. And gaslighting her. Which is psychologically damaging to her.

You describe him as violently abusive to you and your daughter and engaging in gaslighting, trying to alienate you... the list goes on and on

And then on last post you say how sorry you feel for him And very sad for him

I’m sorry OP, but I’m out. It just doesn’t ring true. And it would seem the court isn’t convinced either

Actually I do understand that a parent can be okayish for shortish stays, but longer contact can be problematic.

It's good that your dd is so articulate. You are getting closer to the point where her voice will be seen as credible in its own right. This is ferociously hard, but you have to manage your fears and your communication very tightly, so you are not perceived to be the source of any concerns she expresses.