Breach of Court Order / ex partner took DD away

[beingniceiscool11]

My DD's father has taken DD (5) on holiday (in this country) in absence of agreement between ourselves - despite me telling him for many reasons (safeguarding and the fact our DD has additional needs) that I could not agree to a 7 nights holiday at this time. Is he is breaching the court order if he keeps her there any longer than I have agreed? I have made it clear I do not agree any longer than 4 nights, 5 days. He's refusing to confirm that I can pick her up though.

He has breached the court order quite a few times; obstructing DD having indirect contact with me when he has taken her away before. Not notifying me of where they are or that he had taken her away.

He has already once taken her away this year without agreement from me and he again did not given indication of exactly when he would bring her back... only finally agreeing at the end of 2 or 3 days so that he has control and power the whole time.

He ignores the parts of court order that he doesn't like, and then he'll quote it to me word for word to enforce what he wants eg. wants me to be flexible about timing when he needs to, but then will quote the exact time on court order if I need flexibility. I have not stopped being flexible and compromising myself though.

Court order states half holidays with each parent & parents must agree how. I recently since sent a suggestion for summer holidays that is in line with court order, means DD gets quality time with both of us over the summer holidays, and that we share her care throughout holidays as per court order, and that she doesn't spend too long away from each parent. He says no. We cannot agree so he has filed court proceedings again.
My view is that he is deliberately trying to make it "difficult for us to agree" to encourage the court, I believe, to make an order of what he wants. Citing the reason that it's too difficult for us to agree. But that is masking the safeguarding issues which are the reasons why I won't agree to long stays with her in his sole care. Making it look like we are just bickering. When the issues are much more serious and based on DD's welfare in actuality.

The matter isn't back in court until after summer holidays anyway now, but as it stands, our DD doesn't know when she will see me again currently. She has been very distressed by this in the past and it does seem like he does everything he can to erase me from her memory whilst she's with him and he engages in alienating tactics as well, such as saying bad things about me to her and making fun of me to her - (again breaching court order but no proof only DD's word to me when she's been upset about this).

Can I call the police local to where he is to ask them to support me to pick her up after 4 nights 5 days (which is the longest I'm comfortable to agree she can be there with him)?
What do we do if we can't agree over the rest of the summer? I am seriously worried he will use the long periods of time with her away from me to further brainwash her, deny her indirect contact, continue breaching court order, being emotionally abusive and physically abusive as he has been before if he loses his temper or if he's angry with me for not agreeing and he is in a bad mood that DD will get the brunt of it.

We have tried mediation in the past and he just uses it as a way to pressure me further to agree to what he wants and he doesn't compromise.

What can I do legally? Thanks so much in advance

You can agree to five nights but not seven? I’d be amazed if the court sided with you over that tbh. What safeguarding issues mean 5 days is fine but 7 isn’t?

Does the court order only say half the holidays? In which case, no, he won’t have breached the order. The police won’t do anything. It’s highly likely the court would have agreed to your ex taking your daughter on a normal family holiday if this specific question was raised before they left.

I’m not surprised he’s returned the matter to court based on what you’ve written tbh. Do you not have a solicitor?

What safeguarding issues? Its unlikely to a court concern if your agreed to five not seven days two days seems a bit picky

I’ve agreed to 4 nights. Because he is with his Mum & girlfriend not on his own with DD. Safeguarding issues I cannot go into without revealing too many details but physical and psychological abuse. It doesn’t seem to meet the threshold for SS to get involved and they said I have to take it back to court. He filed first asking for more time with her & no indirect contact with me, as he had threatened to do.
So now have to wait til Sept to outline my concerns it seems? What do we do until then ?

I have had a advice from a solicitor ... they said I needed to send him a suggestion that adheres to court order.. which I have. Split in half but not long periods away from each period & not more than what she is used to in term time. It’s the longer periods 5-7 days where she comes back distressed and he has withheld phone contact on a few occasions - increasingly.

It seems there is no option for me to not agree to him having her 3-4 nights in a row because the currently CAO provides for this in term time. And says half holidays.
I need to adhere to court order until the matter returns to court... ?

I would like the court order revised because there are new circs - out daughter being diagnosed with sensory processing issues and him denying this, and shouting at her telling her she’s pretending. I feel he can’t meet her needs in this regard. And also more disclosures of him being physically abusive to her & his displaying alienating behaviours - being negative about her relationship with me. And gaslighting her. Which is psychologically damaging to her.

To be clear I don’t want him to have any time with her on his own until this matter is investigated. But unless there’s immediate physical harm of life or death, SS don’t seem to do anything. They say wait for courts. So I have to carry on as things are & DD just cope with any scary or absuive incidents that may happen if his temper snaps again. And she continues getting brainwashed that “Mummy lies, Mummy’s silly” etc all summer ?

I think I would be contacting Women's Aid and Rights of Women for help on this one.

Op

The safe guarding issues you refer to are Your safe guarding issues and haven’t been regarded as such by the court or social services. Correct?

@amibeingdaft81 they haven’t been looked at by the court yet.
And they don’t teach SS threshold for them to investigate. They said they only investigate in circumstances where there is no protective parent who can advocate for the child and take it to court - or if the court ask them to get involved. They said since I am able to take this matter to court, they see that as it being my job to safeguard my child - by taking the matter to court.
The thing is that unless the issues involve bruises, bleeding, immediate life or death danger, they are not seen as urgent enough for a court to look at straight away. It will still be 8 weeks until the FHDRA
So what happens to children likely DD who fall somewhere in the middle.. she is being psychologically abused and there is a pattern of physical abuse starting from when she was 2 and he started having her overnight. She has made new disclosures since Cafcass did the section 7 in 2017.
Cafcass identified a low level of domestic abuse and recommended he have 3 nights a week. Which to me seemed excessive, but I agreed to what Cafcass recommended and they advised me to give it a go and maybe things would be different now she’s older. I was positive and hopeful things would be different... after he had her overnights again fast forward few months & she is making disclosures again. And she had been diagnosed with Sensory Processing issues which weren’t severe before overnight contact resume. Her symptoms have gotten exacerbated by the change in circs I think & occupatonal therapist agreed that likely is the case.

So there are new circs to consider.

Sorry correction - the new safeguarding issues that have come up since overnight Contact resumed have not been in front of court yet. They are similar to things DD said when she was 2.5years old.

• they don’t reach SS threshold

I don’t think you’re going to get much support from the court tbh, speaking as someone who’s spent thousands on court cases and got nowhere.

I’d work on your daughter’s resilience and helping her with coping strategies when she’s not with you.

It sucks but the court will be expecting you to demonstrate that you’re committed to making contact work. I don’t think your concerns over a 7 day holiday (in this country), will be taken seriously.

In this instance, i’d let it go and not engage in conflict on this. Just concentrate on the time you do have with your daughter.

On the plus side, she’s getting older and learning to think for herself/can tell you about things that concern her.

I’ve had this situation since my son was 2 and he’ll be 6 soon. You learn coping techniques and so do they. I fully attribute my son’s reading ability to using iMessage on his iPad to message me while he’s away.

Just because you don't agree that doesn't mean it's right for the contact not to happen.
Also it seems that you think he's not telling you things to control you, but it's probably to stop you bothering him.

You know where he is on holiday and you want to use that information to call the police and collect the child. Can you imagine how your dc will feel being collected by the police???
After enjoying their holiday.

Still not getting why 5 days is okay but 7 isn’t. Either she’s at risk or isn’t. I still don’t think you’ll get anywhere. CAFCASS have assessed and recommended substantial contact and the court has ordered it. I would be careful. If you appear to be undermining contact, the court can respond by ordering even more contact with her father. I assume you have photographic proof of the physical abuse?

I would take further legal advice and follow that.

It doesn't sound like he is breaking tjf court order if it says half holidays each. The agreeing between parents is usually more in terms of which half or maybe two weeks at a time. The default on not agreeing is more likely to thst then what you want.

If you are concerned about her welfare, then you need to take the matter to court, it is not for him to do to defend himself against your accusations. It is no surprise he is acting the way he does in consideration that he clearly doesn't agree with your accusations.

The default is not you dictating when he can see his daughter when it suits you (ie. he is not alone with her). Hopefully court will looked into it again and reach a decision based on what is best for your DD, not her parents, clearly imposing stricter rules and they are definite concerns about her wellbeing, or telling you to back off if they don't agree with you.

Still not getting why 5 days is okay but 7 isn’t. Either she’s at risk or isn’t

I’m confused too
As would a court be

Obviously you've not set out the full facts, but I think you've really got an uphill struggle here. The court said holidays shared equally. That invariably means you take the child in week-long chunks at least, but more usually in the summer either a 2- then a 1-week spell or for 3 weeks at a time.

Unless you're pretty sure that your child's very recently diagnosed needs mean the arrangements should be changed, you may find that the court views your position as being obstructive.

obstructing DD having indirect contact with me when he has taken her away before is this telephone calls/facetime every/throughout the day? As pp unless you are facilitating same to him when she is with you would the court enforce this?

@limestars It is in the court order that both of us should advise the other parent of where DD is staying should we take her away from our homes for 2 nights of more & facilitate a phone call with DD with the other parent during this time away.

I do this for him yes. I set a time for FaceTime, he often has 30mins FaceTime with her. He delays delays and won’t organise a FaceTime, tells me I don’t need one because I’ll see her soon, tells me she doesn’t want to. Or he’ll set a time for the call and then eg. I’ll wake up early to receive call and then he’ll cancel it. Last time he had for 6 days he spent most of that time messaging me cancelling FaceTimes and then saying his phone camera didn’t work, only to video call a mutual friend who I was on holiday with in order to ask her where I was holidaying. I just him get on with things and don’t dictate to him what he should be doing in terms of parenting ..obviously.. but he is instrusive into my personal life , blames me for anything DD is struggling with, lies about being violent and abusive, gaslights and pretends it didn’t happen, if I raise that DD has made a disclosure to him he turns it around on me saying if I take it back to court he will ask for even more time with her and that I won’t get things my way.

The court did not order the contact , we made an agreement before the final hearing based on Cafcass recommendations. And I said I was unsure it would work well for DD having overnight contact resume at the same time as her starting school for first time but I agreed. To avoid judge making decision. I have always been very positive about her Dad to her despite what I may feel about him. I have not undermined contact. If anything he has done that. He refused to take her to her best friend’s birthday party so that DD wouldn’t see me.
When we bumped into each other at an event when he had DD in his weekend, DD was clingy with me and wanted to cuddle me and spend time with me, I was trying to let her do her thing and not interfere with his weekend so I said hello and hugged her & carried on talking to friends in another area of the event. She kept coming to find me & her Father was following her around whenever she came to me & saying “why is she being so clingy with you? Is this normal? Tell her to go play with her friends. Encourage her to go off. Does she usually do this???” Literally helicopter parenting micromanaging her every interaction with me. I tried to ignore his comments ... he was literally telling me how to parent and undermining her wanting to cuddle me in front of DD
He also makes fun of me to her, snaps at me in front of DD during handovers. He used to use FaceTime to make mean comments to me through DD.

Since overnight contact resumed DD has been having night terrors again pretty much with no consistent sleeping through the night periods.. , sensory issues exacerbated to the point she can hardly wear normal clothes or school uniform.. separation anxiety. Trust me I enjoy my time off and I wish I did feel comfortable to just send her to him for a week. But has will come back saying she has been hurt and frightened by him.

No physical evidence in photos but what he has done has been psychologically scarring even if she doesn’t have bruises. Sadly a court don’t seem to care about psychological harm. How do you prove this ?
The OT agreed that her sensory issues are likely worsened by stress of going back and forth between us.

To reiterate 5 days is not ok. I do think she’s at risk of psychological harm at very least. But court order says I must send her. So 4 nights is better as it’s less time with her in his sole care.

What is safe about 4 nights but not 7? To be honest it sounds like you are trying to control the contact, without further context having a one week holiday doesn't sound unreasonable. If there was safeguarding concerns he would not be allowed overnight contact. My suggestion is you see a mediator and try and put your child's needs first rather than wanting revenge, control or to punish your ex for how he treated you. We only know what you have written but if ss aren't concerned and you obviously do trust his family you need to see that her relationship with her father is important and use the time for yourself, you deserve a break

@limestars I was not going to call police to collect child. Of course they wouldn’t collect her. I was asking what can I do if he keeps her for 7 days without my agreement, in fact when I explicitly don’t agree. Surely police can assist to have a word with him to say ... you cannot just decide yourself to keep your child away from her Mother...

The indirect contact is not every day no. It’s once in a period of a few days away. I arrange and facilitate it for him yes.
He wants to stop it as he says it’s disruptive for DD to speak to me when she’s out of my care.
But it’s because he doesn’t like her having a relationship with me whilst she’s with him, he finds in convenient. And he resents “having to” do it. He wants her for longer and longer periods whilst not letting her have contact with me and badmouthing me to her. This is alienating behaviour ...

@Amibeingdaft81 — 5 days is not ok in my view but court order currently says half the holidays. Safeguarding issues are not serious or urgent enough to warrant court allowing eg. An emergency hearing for prohibited steps that he is not alone with her ... So the court order we currently have still says I must agree. And it will not be back at court for 8 weeks (he’s taken it back to court to have more time with DD and stop her having indirect contact with me)

@stucknoue I do use the time away for myself and I enjoy it.
Again I don’t believe 4 nights is safe but current court order allows for it and I must stick to that.
SS told me that what she said is concerning but it’s my job to take it back to court as it doesn’t meet their threshold... doesn’t necessarily mean it is safe and there are no concerns. Just that it’s not within their remit.

@stucknoue please don’t assume that I am wanting revenge or to control or punish my ex for how he treated me. I’m not concerned with how he treated me as it was 4 years ago and I’m a different person now. The issue is he is now doing similar abusive things to our DD, and that is current.
If anything he is the person who has used court system to continue control over me and to punish me for leaving him and telling truth of what he did to me & raising concerns over what DD has said he’s done to her. He wants to direct attention away from his conduct and behaviour & has used co-parenting as constant way to blame, control me ... I am just trying to live my life and move on but I also need to take seriously what my DD has said. Hence me trying to find out how I can address these issues in court. But the immediate situation is that the last holiday period he was breaching court order, not facilitating phone contact between me and DD, not confirming with me when he would bring DD back, DD was returning distressed ... So the same again seemed to be happening this holiday period. And I wanted to know what can be done to avoid same thing happening again. If I was to do the same he would think I had abducted her and call police also. If he was allowed to contact with daughter, no idea where she was or when she would get her back...?

I think you’ll be disappointed in court. You haven’t got proof. You’re happy enough for 4 nights but not 6. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if your child is unsettled by the indirect contact as she will be picking up on your resistance to the contact and the conflict between the two of you. The court are not going to micromanage things that come down to parenting differences and they cannot act when you don’t have proof.

What a horrible situation. I really don't think its worth you calling the police as I don't think they will do anything.

@MissMalice
DD is not unsettled by indirect contact, he just claims its “disruptive” as he wants to not have to stop what he’s doing to do it, or think ahead to arrange it. However I do this for him happily as I think it’s part of parenting to make time for it, prepare DD like “ok at 2 o clock we’re doing FaceTime with Daddy”... then “ok 5 minutes then we’re going to stop what we’re doing and do FaceTime.”
He lies a lot.... he says she doesn’t want to speak to me. But she is thrilled to speak to me when she does.. what makes her unsettled and upset is when she goes 5/6 days with no contact with me ... she comes back angry and upset at me & saying she didn’t know if she would ever see Mummy again. Says she thought she was just living with Daddy forever. She’s devastated and won’t stop crying or clinging to me and won’t settle to sleep as she’s so anxious.
He doesn’t see that she needs reassurance of when she will see me again, and 5 days feels like a long time for a child.

If she mentions something to do with her Dad I am always positive & encouraging if it it’s positive.. if she’s saying I’m frightened and Daddy hurt me then I listen to her.. I’m not going to say “don’t be silly Daddy would never do that he’s wonderful” but I don’t give it unnecessary focus or attention either I just listen to what she said and I empathise.
She also says lots of positive things about her time with him and I’m always excited for her/with her. I’m glad to hear the positive ..
not sure how she’d have picked up resistance from me because I do actually want her to have a good (& safe) time with him and I am spending the phone call saying “oh great that sounds so fun! Wow well done you did swimming with Daddy in the sea ? Amazing !”
Even when she has been complaining about “Daddy didn’t let me buy the book I wanted” I have been on Daddy’s side saying well perhaps he thought it was a bit young for you and he’s trying to encourage you to try new sorts of books” so I back him up and I’m not “against Daddy” in her eyes.

Another perspective is that he could have - instead of spending whole weekend texting me and emailing me saying he wants to keep her there for a week (despite her not coping well with being away for 5 days in past) ... he could recognise ok wow my daughter is struggling with being away from her Mum.. how can I remedy this or improve this situation? How can I work with her Mum to make it so this is easier for our DD ?
What about if he were to just enjoy his holiday time with DD instead of harassing me /pressuring me the entire time through text and email... and accept “ok this time I’ll bring her back after 5 days... I’ll work on more days next time by addressing in mediation the issues my DD is having that is causing her distress ..” so that then in future she can easily have 7 days with him...?

He doesn’t do this because he wants the stage of the court.. he wants the attention from me of the back and forth communication and he wants to cause drama so he feels important & he loves to have a battle so he can then play the victim... even if he caused the battle.

I have tried to calmly address issues with him and see what we can do to help DD, he says yes yes I’ll reassure her and then the next time he takes her away, as soon as he has her, he refuses FaceTime with me again. And tells me she doesn’t want to. Then she’s distressed on return to me, again.
It’s only one Facetime he has to facilitate she she’s away, just one .. to touch base with her Mother. Not every day she’s away.
He just loves having power & control.

I try to address issues calmly and his response was “well if you take these (safeguarding) issues to court I will make sure I ask for even more time with her & you won’t get things going the way you want them to”

Low and behold he has taken it to court instead of addressing his conduct he just denies it. But I believe DD.