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Can brother in law force us to sell?

258 replies

teaandbuns · 02/06/2019 11:51

This is long and complicated... apologies in advance, and thanks for reading.

My OH and I bought a house with my mother in law. We paid the mortgage, all bills, looked after everything including her. She provided the deposit through the sale of her own house. Her name was not on the deeds.

Four years on, MIL died. It happened rather suddenly, in late 2017. OH has one brother, resident in the US for donkey's years. They have never been close.

BIL wants his inheritance, which is mostly the proceeds from the sale of their mother's house, and is therefore tied up in our home. She owned about a 36 percent share of the place so we owe him about 18 percent of the total current value. There is no legal paperwork covering any of this (we did consult a solicitor before MIL died but he was making it all so convoluted there wouldn't have been anything left once his fees had been paid) but we are quite clear that we owe BIL that percentage and I don't think there's any argument on that front.

The problem is timing. BIL is well off (owns properties in New York), and as Brexit is obviously knocking the UK economy and house prices, we suggested waiting for things to improve before selling (he would of course benefit from any price improvement). He seemed OK with this at first but has since changed his mind.

We put the house on the market in March, as soon as we realised he didn't in fact want to wait. Things rapidly turned nasty (he doesn't believe we're really trying to sell and keeps suggesting we're up to all sorts, including having forced his mum to sign secret documents in our favour (not the case!)). We remortgaged as much as we could and released £60k, which we offered to give him while we try to raise the rest, but for some reason he refused that. (We owe him about £175k in total.)

He is demanding to be kept in the loop with the estate agents, to know about all viewings etc.

We are at our wits' end. We've never tried to lie or cheat. In fact we worked our bums off getting the house in perfect order for sale. There have been no proceedable offers, and all we're getting is demands to know when he'll be paid. I could of course show him all the emails I exchange with the agents but who is he - who stood back and watched me change his mother's colostomy bag when he visited while she was sick - to decide I can't be trusted and need to prove myself to him? It's bad enough having an unwanted house move hanging over you, plus the worry about where you'll go, without having this man barking demands and accusations from across the pond. You might wonder why if we have nothing to hide we don't just show him the correspondence - but I don't think it would end there. Judging by his behaviour so far, he'd be all over the agents, trying to get the price dropped and running the sale from afar.

We don't have much equity - the house needed a lot of work and we probably paid too much for it - and of course if we do manage to sell we will have to pay stamp duty and moving costs so we'll be limping off with not a lot to show for the last few years.

On top of that we'll be putting our eight-year-old daughter through a house move not long after she lost her live-in grandma - a major bereavement for her as she can't remember a time when they didn't live together and they were very close.

We put the house straight up for sale and have done our best. But all we've had in return is bullying, and it's making us feel like taking the house off the market.

My question is, do we actually HAVE to sell the house right now? The split is roughly 1/5 ownership to BIL vs 4/5 to us, so do we really have to do what he says and be bullied into selling at a terrible time? Even if we sell at the full asking price (which we won't) we'll be losing out a lot. Can he force us to accept a low offer or drop the price until someone eventually buys? What's the state of play?

At the moment we're jumping when BIL says jump - but is that right?

The estate is currently with a different solicitor who is looking after applying for probate, but she represents the estate (and both brothers are executors) so she wouldn't be able to act for us.

We have obviously reached a stage where we do need legal advice and will start looking for another solicitor on Monday. Meanwhile I wondered if anyone could offer their thoughts as I feel like I've read the whole internet and can't find anyone who's in the same situation as us!

Thank you.

OP posts:
EdtheBear · 06/06/2019 01:02

No real legal knowledge but couple of questions.

When MIL sold her previous house, why did she put ALL her money into your house?

Why didn't she invest 50% in the house and kept 50% in cash.

At the time of purchase what consideration was given to her passing away, and you finding the 18% for BIL?

Was it the original intention that you'd be able to add to your mortgage or sell the house?
Was there no consideration that you'd need to find the cash to pay BIL back?

Purpleneonpinkunicorns · 06/06/2019 01:16

Just want to say I can't stand greedy cheeky feckers who are happy to have an inheritance but not happy to help with caring responsibilities so selfish and un moral...good luck with the solicitor OP.

Aridane · 06/06/2019 07:17

No real legal knowledge but couple of questions.

*When MIL sold her previous house, why did she put ALL her money into your house?+

Why didn't she invest 50% in the house and kept 50% in cash.

Probably to help son with property purchase as much as she could and secure in her trust and confidence in her DS

EdtheBear · 06/06/2019 07:39

What I was actually getting at is if the MIL had kept money aside for BIL, Op wouldn't be in the position of having to sell the house to pay BIL. He would have got his inheritance from the cash set aside.

Was it always planned that Op would sell when MIL died?

Were they hoping to buy BILs share?

They seem to have got into a mess partly because of trying to keep legal fees down and avoiding the convoluted way the lawyer was trying to protect their investment.

prh47bridge · 06/06/2019 07:42

Indirect contributions have been made by OP-mortgage payments, taxes (I assume), improvements

The mortgage payments relate to the OP's part of the property. That would not increase her share. If MIL had contributed to the mortgage it may have increased her share.

The OP has not said anything about making any improvements.

The only tax that is relevant would be council tax. That would not be viewed by the courts as increasing the OP's share of the property.

sincethereis · 06/06/2019 08:10

So much poor legal advice being given Shock

mumblechum0 · 06/06/2019 09:28

It's threads like these which really make me wonder whether people posting answers in the Legal section should have to show their practising certificate.

So many opinions, virtually all wrong except for prh47 and collaborate.

Read their posts OP and ignore the rest.

(I'm retired so didn't want to post but there's a very obvious resulting trust/constructive trust in this case)

EdtheBear · 06/06/2019 19:32

Op what did your lawyer advise?

Redred2429 · 06/06/2019 19:41

Any news op?

teaandbuns · 06/06/2019 22:05

Hi everyone

Yes, we have news. Lawyer said, in a nutshell, that we are a bit fecked.
We won't be able to hold BiL off unless we want to waste time (and lots of money, and our dignity) with spurious delaying tactics, like pretending to think we have a case to stay through the inheritance act.

As Collaborate and a few others have rightly said, by recognising MiL's share of the property in writing, we effectively created a trust which protects the money. As we have never intended to try to diddle BiL out of a single penny (or even ask him for any recognition of the work we did looking after his ailing mum) this is all fine and as it should be.

The only thing we hoped for was to delay things a while so we can try to raise the money in other ways.

As we can't appeal to his humanity not to make us go through a house move (hot on the heels of a redundancy for me and DD's first big bereavement, nice!) our best hope is that the house sale will drag itself out until we can raise the money another way. A couple of places we've looked at have been on and off the market for over a year, with sales falling through. So fingers crossed we get the very worst the housing market can throw at us.

Failing that we have to hope we don't end up forced to sell for a low price, as then we'll have to go and live in a tree.

Thanks so much, again, everyone for your help, time and effort. The professional advice has been invaluable and frankly so have all the lovely rants at BiL on our behalf!

OP posts:
EdtheBear · 06/06/2019 23:31

Fingers crossed that you get a job soon and are able to raise the funds, or BIL finds a heart, before a sale comes through.

One bright side if prices are low just now whatever you buy will be low too.
Good luck.

Aridane · 06/06/2019 23:41

I'm so glad you got advice , even though it was wasn't the same as the keyboard lawyers (with a few notable exceptions)

frazzledasarock · 06/06/2019 23:51

I don’t understand why you feel you need to pay BIL original a percentage of the original amount plus uplift.

There’s surely no uplift as the equity doesn’t exist, surely you’d be paying back a percentage of the original amount only and if you want to pay an uplift that should be taken into consideration after deducting associated debt?

How can you owe him a larger portion than you’ll get yourselves when he is only due 18%?

prh47bridge · 07/06/2019 00:15

frazzledasarock - MIL bought 36% of the house. So 36% of the current value of the house is part of MIL's estate. BIL is entitled to half of that, so he is entitled to 18% of the value of the house.

The fact that the OP and her DH took out a mortgage to pay for their 64% of the house is irrelevant and cannot affect MIL's entitlement at all. Even if their 64% of the house is worth less than the mortgage, they still only own 64% of the house. That is all they have ever owned. Them getting into negative equity (if that is what has happened - it isn't clear from the OP's posts) does not magically entitle them to a larger share of the property.

teaandbuns · 07/06/2019 09:16

Exactly. We're not in negative equity, but we're in danger of the equity being less than 36% as we spent a lot on renovations etc. We've been naive with the numbers, for sure. And as I said probably paid over the odds in the first place because we were desperate for a place that could work for all of us (buses for MIL, school run for DD, commutes for OH and me). Logistics run the life of any working parent, obvs, but add an elderly dependent and it gets even worse.

We'll be paying estate agency fees and will have to find stamp duty. So that's how our half will effectively shrink.

Anyhoo. Tis what it is.

OP posts:
dontdoxmeeither · 07/06/2019 09:18

Is there no way (legally) to deduct some expenses from his share? That he would (morally also) have shared with your DH?

He sounds an absolute arse and you've both clearly done everything morally correctly.

Surely as he's "entitled" to a minority percentage, he doesn't get to call the shots and insist on an immediate sale?

I'm not a legal bod whatsoever and I'm sorry you're in this situation

Greenkit · 07/06/2019 09:22

Surely his share is minus all fees....

blaaake · 07/06/2019 09:24

Forgive me if I'm wrong (I'm not an expert) but couldn't you release equity on the house for his 18% share and buy him out?

teaandbuns · 07/06/2019 09:29

Greenkit and Dontdox, apparently not. We have to pay him 18% because that is the value of half her investment. The fact that we can't raise it without selling the house is our lookout, therefore the fees are our problem too.

Blaaake, a few people have asked that. Believe me, if we weren't mortgaged up to the hilt and if I had a job we'd be remortgaging to pay him off.

OP posts:
TeacupDrama · 07/06/2019 09:30

did the lawyer say why the estate agency fees will have to come out of your share and not out of the estate?
normally all fees come out of the estate, obviously stamp duty on a new place will have to come out of OP's share so that will reduce what is available in their 18%
if it sells for less than they paid for it BIL still only gets 18% - appropriate share of fees
if place sells for 1 million minus fees probably 20K surely BIL then gets 18% of 980,000

TeacupDrama · 07/06/2019 09:32

sorry cross post

Tensixtysix · 07/06/2019 09:34

Get a solicitor to tell him to F off!

teaandbuns · 07/06/2019 09:36

Tensixtysix, it seems we're the ones who must F off.

OP posts:
teaandbuns · 07/06/2019 09:36

(According to the solicitor we spoke to, and others who have offered advice here.)

OP posts:
EdtheBear · 07/06/2019 10:20

When the house was purchased, Did MIL pay her percentage of the legal fees and stamp duty, over and above her percentage of the house?

So say the house was £100k did she pay £36k inc her percentage of the fees
Or did she pay £36k plus the fees and stamp duty.

That may be a way to reduce the money owed to BIL.

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