DH thought he had power of attorney for fils finances but he doesn't.

[MrsKoala]

Fil has dementia and 2 years ago dh spoke to a solicitor about POA (I was there when we brought up the subject when we were doing our wills). It all went thru and documents were sent out. DH is adamant he spoke about health and finances (as we did when we spoke at our will meeting).

Now fil is in need of going to a care home and we told SS we have POA (also in the last 2 years we showed the POA to another solicitor when dealing with fil property, the bank and council and utility companies when dealing with finances). They have asked to see it and when DH showed it to them they say it doesn't cover finances.

So what can we do now? Fil needs his flat sold to pay for care and we have been using his finances to pay for things for him for the last 2 years. Will we be in trouble? FIl also owns our house, will they make us sell it?

DH has just gone to the solicitors on the way to the hospital and they have got the financial POA in their safe!!! They didn't send it out (or more likely DH lost it/left it at the bank etc) and have given DH 5 copies. So now we need to work out a bridging loan in fils name to cover him while we sell his flat.

Thank you all once again for keeping me sane.

That is brilliant news OP, one less worry for you.

I hope you can get FIL settled into his care home now. How is your DH coping with all of this?

Not well. :( Fil is very aggressive and violent and keeps attacking people and ripping his cannulas/catheters out. He wants to die and watching him going like this is tearing DH apart. Mil died of cancer and had a 'good' death at her house, holding DH's hand and telling him she loved him. But Fil is a whole different story.

The added financial stress is the last thing anyone needs when dealing with this.

That is so hard OP

In that case, as his needs have increased, you could ask for CHC checklist to be redone. Ripping out cannulas and unpredictable violence are possible high scores in CHC Behaviour & Psychological domains. None of us can give you individual advice but it's not unreasonable to ask for that to be revisited in light of new information.

Also you can discuss with SW for their assessment to be updated now his needs have changed, and whether
if not CHC, their dept will consider a short term funding arrangement (a loan/but not a loan) or deferred payment whilst property sells.

**Please ask for/ read the LAs residential charging policy information very carefully.

Is he in hospital? The social worker a d discharge worker will need to do a care assessment a d a financial social assessment to see if he qualifies for any funding and also that a carehome can look after him properly. The staff will need a meeting with your dh as he has both poa, he should not be moved until the doctor says it is safe to do so or that it is in his best interest, money has been sorted out and the care can be guaranteed. With his behaviour you need to ask the doctors if this is part of his dementia, will he see a dementia specialist or mental health team and will he be safe in a carehome. If he has cannula and catheter he might not be ready to leave hospital yet. Dont just agree to a carehome or bridging loan. You can go and visit carehomes yourself and pick the one you like, take advice from the discharge team, the cqc websites and take a look, he might need a specialist dementia home. Ask the ward sister if he has had a behaviour chart, food and fluid charts, continence charts, a careplan and a needs assessment, ask for him to have a chc assessment and then a best interest meeting with your dh. First thing would be to ask the doctors what there plan is, what his prognosis is, why is he being aggressive.

Thank you. He has been in and out of hospitals and care homes and back home since beginning of Dec when he first fell. The last care home couldn't cope with him so put him in an ambulance back to a&e. I think they have given up on the cannula now and he isn't drinking so I expect will fade away and get weaker. I think they have given up on the catheter too.

We have chosen a really lovely care home on our road (the other one was over an hour away and DH spent 3 hours each sat and sunday and one day in the week seeing fil which is very hard as we have 3 small dc - 6, 4 and 2 - and DH works away a lot and long hours as it is). They assessed him at the hospital today and we are just praying they will accept him. (it's about £1300 per week so not cheap) That way DH can pop in on the way to and from work for 20 mins each day. He always deteriorates massively in hospital so the sooner we can get him settled in a home environment the better.

I just hope he finds some peace and can settle for the remainder of his days. He seems so terrified it's heartbreaking.

Oh and the drs do think this is the end stage dementia making him violent.

(I've assumed he is still in hospital)

I am sorry but glad you have found a nice home, do ask about fast track funding, if he is entering his last few months he may well get full funding for this, speak to the ward sister and the discharge co ordinator. Social services may try to fob you off. Its a form of chc assessment which the doctor signs then it gets sorted out very quickly. If he is awarded this then it's can be continually re assessed.

That is great news about the financial POA that is one less thing for you to worry about. It’s incredibly hard when they are end stage. My MIL could be violent, demanding, abusive and racist when in hospital . It is her illness making her like that she was very quiet and kind with a good social life before the illness took her away , not dementia in her case but another medical condition, and she lived in a state of fear at times. She recently moved into a specialist care home and after a difficult initial period she has settled well. The staff are patient and kind and the worst of her behaviour has settled down, her world is now small but she manages much better with 24hr support.
She is physically quite healthy so could live on for many more years which is not always a good thing ( only my opinion of course).

Thank you Wiggly. I had not heard of that but I've now googled it and I think he should come under that criteria. No one helps you or tells you. We speak to different people every time. He has been I hospital for about 3 weeks and the care provider in his home called last week to say they think the care is going well and their staff have no issues, when he fell and went into the hospital 3 days before the care package was meant to start. They seem to get their shit together when it comes to asking us for money tho.

I agree with you coffee. My Nana had dementia but a really healthy body. She lived for 10 years not knowing who anyone was. But she was still a quiet and gentle soul and just sat looking out of the window. By the time she had gone we had said goodbye to her long before.

My MIL’s mum had an assessment done when they were looking to discharge her from hospital. MIL was hoping she would be discharged to a care home as her mum was in a pattern of being discharged, going home and then within days, and once within hours, going back to hospital in an ambulance. This assessment stated she could go home, the person doing the assessment had never met MIL’s mum, she just answered all the questions herself!. Luckily, after my experience with DF in hospital, MIL kept challenging this assessment and finally her mum went into a lovely care home.

You're right, they are always pretty on the ball when it comes to getting money! He should have been allocated hospital social worker, ask who it is, ask to see the assessment and ask for a meeting with the doctor, nurse and discharge co ordinator. If the new care home is a good one they will make sure they have everything in place before he moves, right bed and mattress, any special diet or swallowing needs, a funding agreement.

Make sure his assessment is as up to date as possible. I think this was the problem with my DF. We tried to get the fast track funding for him as he had terminal cancer. There had been a discharge meeting for DF the week before, where they had originally argued that he could go home and DM, who is in her 80s, could look after him. At this stage DF was deteriorating rapidly, but was still eating a little, was a little aware of his surroundings although very confused, and had managed to shuffle his way to the bathroom. Although in the space of 10 days at the hospital had fallen at least 6 times and had failed the dementia test 100% (which he had previously taken a year ago and had passed comfortably). They eventually agreed he could go into a care home for 6 weeks respite and then be assessed again.

It took 5 days to get the paperwork sorted, by which time DF had deteriorated to the state I previously posted about, when the social worker told me no funding of any sort would be available, as he was not that ill, and I would be amazed by how much DF would bounce back once he was in a home. At this point the doctors agreed that DF was too poorly for a care home and would have to go to a nursing home, as he was incapable of looking after himself in any way. So the search started again for somewhere he could go. As I said before he died 2 days later in hospital

That's really sad

I hope you've got SW involved whilst he's on ward and asked for CHC checklist to be re done, or asked consultant if they believe he meets separate CHC fast track criteria now in light of that. Don't be afraid to insist on answer or someone to go through it with you. As his representative, and even more so as his LPAs, you are entitled to be involved.

Some light bedtime reading, all available on DOH website re CHC.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-framework-for-nhs-continuing-healthcare-and-nhs-funded-nursing-care

Look at CHC checklist on this following link:
Nb. The DST is second long stage if positive CHC checklist (but fast track chc is a simple form doctor fills out because it is for those end of life rapidly deteriorating which is a clinical decision)

www.gov.uk/government/collections/nhs-continuing-healthcare-and-nhs-funded-nursing-care#tools

(CHC fast track is a clinical decision that is very hard for doctors to make but it is theirs alone to decide, and sometimes turns out not to be quite the case- people outlive or don't live as long- so it is based on their clinical assessment at the time) if that helps X

If someone lives longer than expected and has fast track funding it can be re assessed.

Btw. If they don't do CHC in hospital, although they should as part of his discharge planning and social care assessment (Care Act 2014, which he is entitled to even if self funding) and that it is current (so if needs significantly change, re-assessment), you can request it is done by community nurses &/ social care team in the community once he is in the care home. IF his needs have changed significantly since last CHC checklist.

I have said too much 😁
(I'm joking as I'm always pointing people to right legislative framework)

Have you asked for Local Authority (LA)'s residential (& NH) charging policy yet OP? It may answer some of your earlier queries, in a way that may materially reduce your stress levels.

@wigglypiggly
It can. And sometimes good care in a NH results in that and people being stabilised, but you get a pretty fine lot of CHC funding in meantime as entitled to it and CHC reviews come along slowly and take time to do even once due as is a big process (usually over 60 pages of documents compiled/gathered)

@ineedaholidaynow

That's good advice and so sad that your DF deteriorated so quickly. 😥

My posts have been generic legal context responses and guiding to relevant legislation, practice and frameworks and hopefully helpful pointers.
But there's always such a heartfelt story and crisis behind it that health and social care practitioners and legal advisors are/ should always be/ mindful of.

By 'story', I mean experience. Sorry. Cooking tea and multi tasking, so less careful with my wording.

OffToBed don’t worry, story is fine.

I feel so guilty that I didn’t advocate enough for my DF when he was in hospital. He deteriorated so quickly, think I was in so much shock and we kept being told he wasn’t that bad, although we could see that he was My DM will always regret that DF never got to spend his last few days in the hospice. The only thing I am eternally grateful for is that DF didn’t seem to be in pain in last few weeks.

If my story can help other people advocate for their loved ones then at least I feel I have done something.