At What Age do Courts Take Children's Wishes into account Re Custody?

[MissedTheBoatAgain]

Brief background first;

Divorce completed in 2016, but to my surprise Courts did not ask what arrangements had been made for the Child with respect to contact. Ex and child moved out of FMH early 2017. I work outside the UK like I have done so since late 80's. Child is now 12.

Child not happy with staying with Mother as he no longer can pursue his outside of School Hobbies as Mother won't take him. Child is often left in house alone as his Mother does not like him being with Grandparents. Child prefers to be with Grandparents as they take him to many places.

I don't really like the idea of putting a child that age through the Courts and being questioned, but all other proposals have been ignored by Ex.

Has anyone been through this? How doe the courts handle a child that age, assuming they are permitted at all?

Cafcass were involved several years ago when Ex threatened to take child to her native Country, but that is over now (I hope).

Only other option I can think of is to quit overseas working and return to UK to fight my case. However, being unemployed may go against me? A UK job is sure to pay less than overseas. So regardless of the Court's decision there will be less money to support Child and Ex.

Any suggestions welcome as child is being used as a weapon by his Mother in my view and not leading the happy life he used to have.

This is going back about 20 years but at that time it was 12 when my parents gained legal guardianship of their grandchild. He'd lived with us for years but it was formalised at 12 following legal advice so my nephew could say where he wanted to be.

This is going back about 20 years but at that time it was 12 when my parents gained legal guardianship of their grandchild

Good to hear that Grandparents were successful as that would be the ideal solution in my circumstances, but possible things have changed in 20 years?

Leaving a 12 year old alone in the house sometimes and not taking him to after school clubs is not a good reason to send him to live with his grandparents.

Unless there is more to this i don't think any of this is a good enough reason to take a child from its mother. Obviously that's only going on the bit of information given but sounds like the things the child complains about are typical preteen moaning (I have an 11 year old).

Apart from the not being left with grandparents because your ex doesn't want that (unless there is some other context such as them ignoring her wishes etc).

And no it's not really ideal for your child to go and live with grandparents over their mother whilst you work abroad. That's ridiculous unless the situation is abusive.

The grandparents wouldn't gain residency over the mother unless serious neglect and abuse was proven. Which you have not described.

You could place a claim to become resident parent that your child could back, at the age of 12 this would give you a lot of leverage.
However how much time do you stay in the UK?

You will be seriously disadvantaged by not residing in the UK and that will be the sections maker as the courts will not move a child that old and so established from the UK and away from his mother.

How lovely to be so concerned for your child's welfare that you will actually make landfall in his country to do battle with his mother.

Or do you plan to have your parents do your litigation for you as well as your parenting?

Child is not in any danger that I am aware of. As for abuse how do you define it? Physical abuse (which I am fairly sure there is not as someone would have noticed by now)? Or mental abuse (deprivation of pursuit of out of school hobbies, general lack of interest from Mother)?

Child has told me that he would prefer to live with his Grandparents as according to child his mother does little for him. At age 12 he is good cook as makes most of his own meals. On school days when his mother is not working he has a long bus journey as mother prefers to lie in. Does not let his friends into house.

I used to keep in contact on Skype on Child's Mobile, but that was blocked. So then started to use WhatsApp, but that was blocked too. Of the few messages I have received in last few months they were sent from one of Child's friends phone. My parents have bought the child several mobiles and SIMS in hope they too can keep in contact, but one by one they disappeared. The list goes on.

Starting to think a return to UK is the only way forward, but that does not mean there will not be any need to involve Courts which is why I posted on Legal.

How lovely to be so concerned for your child's welfare that you will actually make landfall in his country to do battle with his mother

Worked outside UK all my working life. So nothing new to Ex or Child about me being away from UK

Or do you plan to have your parents do your litigation for you as well as your parenting?

Ex was happy for my parents to look after child weeks at a time in the past whilst she visited her native country by herself. If child prefers to be with grandparents is he not entitled to a say even he is only 12? That was my legal question.

However how much time do you stay in the UK?

Varies considerably depending on type of Contract. When in Oil and Gas I worked 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off. So had 6 months per year. Current job will allow 8 weeks at most which as you point out is a big disadvantage.

Not looking for the child to be moved out of UK, just to spend more time with his Grandparents. However, child prefers to be with Grandparents.

Conundrum is that both parents are required to maximize their earnings. A move to the UK would reduce earnings massively. Had I only been outside UK for a short time maybe not an issue. However, I have been outside UK since late 80's, ie. habitually Non-Resident.

Guess the only way to find out is to return to UK and look for a Job?

deprivation of pursuit of out of school hobbies, general lack of interest from Mother

That's not abuse. No child is entitled to extra curricular activities. There are to many variables. Cost, time, travel etc.

General lack of interest is far to vague. You are only getting one side. From a pre teen at that.

So what is the lack of interest? Does she ignore his tantrums? His demands?

At 12 he should be able to fix himself some food so that's nothing special.

You will not gain residency over the mother who has had him all this time when you're not in the country 6 months of the year.

As she is a good mother your parents will not factor into this dispute at all.

As she is a good mother

Child reckons not, but at age 12 and soon to be 12 maybe that is the start of the difficult teen stage. Never thought of that angle.

OP. I was your son.

When you have a parent doing 100% of the parenting as she is.
Forcing him to get up in the morning, forcing him to be punctual, dealing with the attitude that comes with that(!!!!!), making him go to school, do his homework, get off his phone or games console, be in by curfew, not spend 24/7 with his friends, force more than grunts from him and on and on and on.

She's not going to be very popular is she?!

Compare that to your role or that of the awesome Grandparents who shower him in constant love affection and probably spoil him with every whim.

Do you see where the problems may lie?

No 12 year old wants to be controlled. But he is a child.

Sorry I missed a bit out.

I used to call my dad desperate to live with him because my mother was horrible. And I wanted to live with my nana more than him! She supplied me with an endless supply of biscuits! Not like my cow of a mother who made me eat healthy

But I'm now older. And I see that she is the only person in the whole equation out of my sister and I, my father and my nana who had the shit end of the deal.

You aren't there. You must work so hard no one is taking that away from you.

But you just aren't there for the really hard daily parenting.

Ignoring the rights and wrongs of the situation and answering the question...

The child's wishes will be taken into account by the courts but that does not mean the courts will necessarily do what the child wants. The older the child gets the less likely the courts will go against the child's wishes but there is no fixed age at which the child's wishes are decisive. The fundamental question for the courts would be whether changing who your son lives with is in his best interests.

Why not get some legal advice from an actual lawyer OP?

If your parents want to see more of him they can apply for a contact order to be made. The fact a relationship has been established is in their favour. This will grant them regular contact, not residency. There are no grounds for that. Contact, yes.

As they do already have contact they are very very very unlikely to be awarded anything!
This is reserved for cases where contact has been stopped and that Gp can prove a substantial relationship.

What then going for visitation will probably do is nuke the relationship with the mother and so severely damage any relationship they do have with their Grandson.

At age 12 there is no childcare and most children are in secondary school getting themselves to and from school by foot or bus every day. That is not neglect. perfectly normal and appropriate for his age. I assume he is home alone because his mother works, this is also normal for his age. Many secondary school children return home before their working parent. Him being bored is not a reason to remove him from his mother.

Be cautious of being played against his mother. Children can get very tuned into how to play their separated parents off against each other.

I can’t see that he does have current contact with GPS. Just that they did and that they can no longer contact him by phone.

The father will be aspected to facilitate the contact between his child and his others on his Time.

The mother will have to juggle her family, work, his friends, school etc. All that take time and energy.

She can therefore argue she is not stopping any contact. He is more than welcome to go to his GPs with his father. It is not her responsibility.

The father will be aspected to facilitate the contact between his child and his others on his Time.

No he wouldn’t. I have been through court for GP contact in the father’s absence (due to working abroad) order was granted and I (mother) had to deliver and collect child to contact during my precious weekend time with him.

*She's not going to be very popular is she?!

Compare that to your role or that of the awesome Grandparents who shower him in constant love affection and probably spoil him with every whim.

Do you see where the problems may lie?*

When child stayed with parents in the past they always made sure he was on time for School. Not difficult as school within walking distance.

Last year I built a Log cabin in Grandparents Garden. Meant to be for myself when in UK as FMH is rented out. Child thinks cabin is great as has room for three to sleep, fridge, heating, internet and 65" TV. Luxury camping out he called it.

Maybe the attraction is the internet, big TV and the PlayStation Grandparent bought for him. Cabin is not connected to house so he could stay up all night I guess as he is now at the Mobile Phone and Online games age. Remember Ex having same trouble with daughter when aged 14. Used to stay up all night texting.

Starting to think that child wanting to be at Grandparents all the time might not be connected to his mother at all, but as you point out he can get anyway with anything?

However, I will still aim to return to UK.

due to working abroad

And that's the key point. OP works 4 weeks on 4 weeks off. So ample time to facilitate contact.