Legal salaries

[Aurea]

Hi

I was hoping some Legal professionals could give an idea of what salary to expect after LLB, Diploma, Traineeship/Pupillage, say after 5 and 10 years.

My son is hoping to apply for a LLB, but I don't want him to get into too much debt with difficulty of recouping. He's keen to become a Barrister, or failing that a solicitor. Any other tips would be very welcome. He's hoping to apply for Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Durham and Oxford. He lives in Scotland.

Many thanks

Can range from barely enough to survive (junior barrister in crime) to millions a year in top commercial practices. The law is very competitive, so unless you get excellent results, have lots of relevant work experience and extra curricular, it will be difficult to even find pupillage or a training contract.

The average UK wide salary is £47k after 12yrs. But that includes low pay eg legal aid and high pay.

What kind of law?

Wow, £47k??? I'm 10 years qualified as a solicitor in Scotland doing crime and I earn £34k. Depends what kind of law he wants to do. To get big bucks you need to do boring shit.

"he wants to be a barrister or failing that a solicitor".. erm I would suggest he doesn't say that to any RL solicitors. We're not failed barristers you know, its a different job with different skill sets

In my field (employment) in the regions (midlands) you would expect that after 5 years a good solicitor would be at associate level earning mid 40s upwards. At 10 years you could be a partner (but less likely nowadays, the route to partnership takes much longer than it used to). As a partner you could be earning 75k upwards. Real equity partner could be earning 100kish up to three or four times that depending on the size and profitability of the practice.

It isn't an easy career path nowadays. Scottish law is obviously different to the law of England and Wales and so presumably he wants to live and work in England/Wales?

I don't think you need to do boring shit to get big bucks. I think you need to work crazy hours and the easiest way to do it is to work in London.

I love my job (but I am time poor). I earn what I think is big bucks for the regions (circa 200k).

As a solicitor at a (arguably the) top city firm I was on around £140k after 12 years with theoretical potential for 40% bonus (almost unheard of, 25% more realistic). I could have been on more I think but had multiple maternity leaves which meant I was not doing as many deals / progressing as quickly / billing as many hours during the parts of the financial years when I was on maternity leave.

Data on salaries at large city firms is available at rollonfriday.com. But bear in mind that only a limited number of LPC graduates will earn that money.

Look at the salaries on offer for jobs advertised in the Law Gazette, and provided you realise what is being advertised is the upper end of the scale and highly unlikely to be offered to the successful candidate you can see what the very wide range of salaries is, depending on what area of law a person wants to specialise in.

Many thanks for all your input. It's very helpful.

At the moment he's interested in Criminal Law and human rights but that may well change as he's only 16 still.

Thanks once again.

Well he's highly unlikely to make his fortune in criminal law...

worthy or wealthy is often the choice!

Commercial Law if he wants the money.

Yes. I thought so!

Can some lawyers do a bit of both - commercial to pay the bills and human rights/criminal for satisfaction, or is that too idealist?

That's too idealist - a corporate lawyer wouldn't have the time. Some firms encourage some pro bono work but many City firms give chargeable hour quotas that you must meet - and they aren't low. When I was a corporate lawyer in the City, I used to work 9am - 7pm most days. Often longer.

There's no real way he could do crime/human rights and corporate - and if he was, he'd not be at the top of his game or on big bucks for either!

He needs to decide where he wants to practice. If he's keen to practice in Scotland then Oxford/Durham law degrees will still require conversion. Similarly, if he wants to practice in England, the Scottish law degrees will require conversion (although I believe that Aberdeen and Dundee used to offer an English law degree)

I'm a family barrister, and I'm 7 years call. I earn around £45k pa. Family earns more than crime, but significantly less than civil and commercial work.

The early days are competitive and hard work. If his heart lies in crime/HR then he will be wretched doing corporate work.

Solicitors have a much safer job in my opinion, barristers are at the mercy of being paid when the solicitor remembers to (last year, for example, I got paid nothing in June-August as most solicitors were on holiday). There's also no pension provision, sick pay, maternity leave, holiday pay etc. I wish in many ways someone had sat me down and talked me through the precarious nature of being self employed!

Bear it mind that it is absolutely phenomenally difficultto become a barrister. Plus expensive and risky. I know plenty of people with oxbridge degrees who didn’t make it

All that said a law degree is a flexible and valued degree. Doing it does not commit you to a career in law at that point.

My DD has recently gone through the process of applying for the Bar. He must go in with his eyes open but he does not have to decide which route at the moment.

The Bar Standards Board and the Bar Council have useful advice on training for the Bar. He does not have to do a LLB. It is worth noting that around 45% of Barristers do not have a LLB. What matters is that he has an academic degree from a top flight university. It is no co-incidence that around 40% of young Barristers are Oxbridge educated. The vast majority are from high calibre RG universities. A first is a great help but not vital. The Bar Standards Board produced excellent stats on this career and all their information is worth reading to make an informed decision. If he is commercially minded, a degree is Economics is no hindrance. However, I would have thought if he wants to work in England, do not do a law degree in Scotland.

You cannot mix and match specialisms at the Bar. Human Rights is ludicrously sought after and every single one of DD's friends who wanted to do it, did not get Pupillage. Criminal has more opportunities but remember that there are only about 450 pupillages on offer every year, but that 1400 approx are on the BPTC each year (the training course for the Bar). You can have several goes to get pupillage so at least 2500 can apply in any year. The majority of pupillages are in London.

The BPTC in London costs more than £19,000. So trainee Barristers need to get Scholarships from the Inns of Courts to help. Some of these are very generous but you need to be good. If you do not get a scholarship, the fees are more debt. The Inns also have scholarships for the pupillage year too if the pupil has a low pupillage award from a family or criminal set. The pupillages are offered by Barristers Chambers and they give a financial award ranging from £12,000 to around £70,000 p/a at the top end. Criminal will be nearer the bottom figure. Start looking at Barristers Chambers to see what area of work they do and pupillage information. Mini pupillages (work experience for one week) are available from many Chambers when the student is typically in 2nd year at university.

Many people love being a barrister but there has to be a strong desire to do it. Some family chambers at the top end make plenty of money but the work is very hard and unrelenting.

Building up a CV in your chosen field at university and whilst doing the BPTC is vital. Or even taking a year off between university and the BPTC to give you the edge in the area of work you want is common. People become Paralegals, do research, volunteer or do a Masters. There are lots of options.

This career is ultra competitive and university and degree count. Look at the Inns of Court for further information and go to as many events about law as he can (especially at university) so he is informed about which route to take. Do not believe anyone who says it is a breeze!

There are nearer 6000 training contracts to be a solicitor each year so, other than for the city solicitors, slightly less competition. You have to plan strategically. It is not for the faint hearted and it can result in huge disappointment for the majority. I lost many nights' sleep worrying about DD and her career.

Also keep in mind that a very large percentage of lawyers absolutely hate their jobs.

I enjoy it but DH would happily take a 50% pay cut to do something else (but I won't let hm)

Can some lawyers do a bit of both - commercial to pay the bills and human rights/criminal for satisfaction, or is that too idealist?

Nope.

Doesn't work like that.

If he wants to do human rights and crime he will earn modest wages.

May I suggest your son at 16 concentrates on passing exams and degrees first before worrying how much money he will earn.

Most of us don't do it for the money.

I'd also ensure before he starts on the pathway he looks at the upcoming changes to the profession. There are many coming in both in terms of pathways to qualification and the financial impact of those changes in the wider market. It's a hell of a lot of money to spend on a career that may not suit/will take a long time to pay back. I did my degree part time and worked in a law firm full time, did my lpc and training contract I am over 15 years qualified now and I hate it and would not recommend it to anyone. Nothing to do with the pay just the politics and backstabbing that comes with the job and I have found this in all firms I have worked in high street / regional / city centre / international and silver circle. It's a good degree to have and can open doors to other careers I suggest your son gets as much practical exposure to work in law firms and barristers chambers as he can to really give him an insight.

I left the criminal bar at 5 yrs pqe earning approx £40k. 10 yrs later I now earn over 10x that corporate in house.

It's so variable. But I'd never advise anyone to go into the criminal bar unless they gave alternative means of support.

I second that solicitors aren't failed barristers!
I earned £37k at 5 years pqe in a National medium tier team.
I now work in house for a local authority and earn £27k still 5 years pqe.
My advice is don't go into law unless he has the mindset and academics to do city law.
I would also recommend qualifying as a solicitor and then cross qualify as a barrister if that's what he really wants to do.

This post just smacks of having utterly no understanding of the basics of the legal profession at all.

The attitude that solicitors are failed barristers and if he doesn't make it as a barrister he will fall back on being a solicitor! As if qualifying as a solicitor is an easy fall back option.

Then being primarily concerned with money and asking if he can do corporate work on the side if he doesn't earn much doing crime.

The OP has put the cart about 100 miles in front of the horse and at 16 years old should be looking for work placements to gain some understanding instead of mum counting pennies before he's passed even an a-level.

I used to be a city lawyer. There’s something like 3000 applicants to some city firms for traineeships (they usually recruit maybe 20-30 at a time. The bar is even more competitive. There are a lot of llb grads out there with no jobs.