Legal salaries

[Aurea]

Hi

I was hoping some Legal professionals could give an idea of what salary to expect after LLB, Diploma, Traineeship/Pupillage, say after 5 and 10 years.

My son is hoping to apply for a LLB, but I don't want him to get into too much debt with difficulty of recouping. He's keen to become a Barrister, or failing that a solicitor. Any other tips would be very welcome. He's hoping to apply for Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Durham and Oxford. He lives in Scotland.

Many thanks

Bear in mind that Scotland and England are separate jurisdictions with very different legal systems. An Edinburgh law degree won't be a lot of use for practice in London and vice versa.

Also keep in mind that there is a growing amount of software that will make entry level law jobs even more scarce.

We are maybe giving the OP a bit of a hard time. She is the one asking the question and I can see why she might want to know about salaries.

Op I tell everyone who asks me to speak to their child about law that I will but I will not be urging them to go for it. I would not encourage my own children into the profession (although tbh my own children might stand a better chance since I could get them a training contract). The profession is overwhelmed by the number of graduates (many of which were missold their law degrees from lower rated universities). Only the very brightest succeed. Top rate academics are essential. The next thing that is essential is loads of work experience. It may well be necessary to paralegal for a year or two (on pretty much minimum wage) to get a foot in the door. Then once you're through the door and into the building you will be sacrificing work life balance for the next 40ish years.

If your DS thinks that sounds like fun then he's bonkers he should go for it but he does need to decide whether he wants to live and work in Scotland or England and base his university applications around that.

Training contracts and the LPC are being scrapped from 2020 I believe. Being replaced by the solicitors qualifying exam.

www.sra.org.uk/home/hot-topics/Solicitors-Qualifying-Examination.page

May be of some interest to you / your DS as will apply to him by the time he gets to it.

The BPTC courses are still full though so people do want to do it! If it means everything to you, then go for it. My DD enjoys the social side of her Inn and has lots of friends there and from her course.

I do not actually think it is wrong to think about a career at 16. Obviously top grades from now on are required but there is no harm in being informed about the Bar and Solicitors.

I knew nothing about any of this before DD started down the route to qualification and, quite frankly, it’s a steep learning curve if no-one in your family is connected to the Law.

I do think it is sad, and wrong, that user has said she can get her DCs a training contract. I would have hoped such nepotism was well in the past. So there are even less opportunities for candidates because of parents like user. One would expect that all firms operated a fair and transparent selection process. It is appalling to me that a senior lawyer talks openly of being able to do this.

Nepotism is worst at the bar.

Every son or daughter of a QC or Judge gets a pupillage apparently.

Also in one of my old firms the 27 year old niece daughter of the managing partner was effectively pushing everyone around including very senior lawyers twice her age. Everyone was scared of her as she reported everything to her dad.

No idea where the word niece came from in that post!

It may be appalling to you bubbles but it happens in every business owned by a parent . I own the law firm. I am the managing director and main shareholder. If my dc needed a training contract then I could give them one (although tbh having grown up with two lawyers as parents, they know better). You wouldn't say the same if I owned a biscuit factory and my child desperately wanted to work in a biscuit factory. You'd think it normal that they got a job in the family biscuit company.

Harsh reality of life I'm afraid. If it makes you feel better I don't actually take trainees so it wouldn't be displacing anyone else.

And DS2 wants to be a wizard so...

Huge thanks everyone for your helpful input.

Admittedly, I know little about lLaw at university or as a career.

I do know that my son is on schedule for straight As and is in the top five pupils in his year (good state school). He has completed two lots of work experience with law firms, won rounds of nationwide debating competitions, is reading Law books from the Oxbridge reading list - so yes he is keen to succeed at 16 and hopefully he is not being unrealistic in his aspirations.

I will support him whatever he chooses to do; I just worry about his debt levels.

Thanks once again!

If worries about debt stay in Scotland with no tuition fees for the degree whilst 16 year olds in England are staring down the barrel of £27,000 just for tuition fees.

Be thankful such disparity exists in our country too that your son can benefit from.

Yes. I think you have a point. However, he believes that potentially an Oxbridge/Durham English law degree, rather than a Scots law degree at Edinburgh/Glasgow will pay off financially over a few years. Who knows?......

Well, I think he's right in that a degree in law from Oxbridge/Durham/Bristol/Nottingham etc will stand him in much better stead when he comes to look for jobs and training. He sounds pretty determined.

I think it's great to have such focus at 16. My step daughter was like this. She decided she wanted to be a barrister younger than that, worked really really hard to achieve it, and is now a very successful barrister working from one of the big Inns in the City.

Personally I would take on the debt, and encourage my kids to do the same. Long term view....

One ppint to bear in mind. There are lots more opportunities in England than in Scotland. Salaries are therefore higher in England (even outside London) than in Scotland at least in commercial law. I could easily get an £100k a year job in Manchester or Birmingham but it would he much harder north of the border. The difference on legal aid work or criminal perhaps not so much. It's relatively easy though to qualify in England if you are a scots lawyer.

As for salaries, at 5 years pqe I was earning about £130k a year at a us law firm -and that was 15 years ago. I now earn less than half that in the public sector!

There are not more opportunities in England - the competition is fiercer and even brilliant candidates struggle to get traineeships in London.

I can tell you that even mediocre candidates still find trainships in Scotland, partly because trainee salaries are so much lower and it make sense to firms to hire more of them. And these are at the regional offices of City firms - good names to have on cvs.

Just a little point: barrister do CPD at the Inns of Court. They don’t work out of them.

OP. I think your DS is going in the right direction. Many Oxbridge Law grads will have A*/8/9 grades in all GCSEs. They are sought after highly competitive courses.

Just get the top grade A levels and go for it. I would go for an English degree. High earners pay off far more of their degrees of course and you do need, eventually, to decide if it’s the Bar or not.

I expect nepotism is very alive and kicking at the bar too. It tends to be a career that runs in families! It is also why you have to be special but I do believe the Inns are very fair on who they give scholarships to. Pupillage is in a world of its own! Then there’s the hoops of tenancy! Never ending angst!

Not English as in subject! A degree from an English university.

I actually don't agree Buttered Scone. England is more than just London! Having worked in both markets there are definitely more jobs south of the border.

Where do you live OP? DH is an equity partner in a mid sized regional firm on approx £400k per year. Newly qualified's start on £32k per year. If they are 10-12 years qualified but non partners (possibly senior associates) they earn about £100k. Remember they would also have pensions, private healthcare and possibly other benefits.

That's toppy for the regions though all. I used to work for a very large well known international firm in the regions and senior associates would have been very lucky to be on six figures. Depends on the specialist too of course. It was really annoying when there were lawyers in the London office who were not nearly as good but were earning double for doing the same work.

DH is currently a corporate equity partner (mid level) at a very large regional and no senior associates at his firm are on six figures. In fact there are partners who are not on six figures.

The question is whether jobs are available in the local area, especially at entry level. I know quite a few people who are qualified as solicitors but working in supermarkets etc because there aren't enough entry level jobs to go round.

This is all very interesting!

In answer to a question, we live outside Aberdeen.

Dh is a barrister specialising in Medical negligence earns in excess of 200k+ pa now( 15 yrs call).... but he was a medical Dr ( consultant) before this , so in a very specialised field
Becoming a barrister nowadays is even more cutthroat than when dh was applying for pupillage ( and he applied for over 100 pupillages before securing one ) and unless you can bring something new to chambers, be prepared for a lot of knock backs
Pupils do well if they have experience in another field before doing a conversion course ( eg engineering)

I used to be a litigation partner. Hated it. Realised very recently, not because I'm not clever enough, I'm just not a cold hearted ego maniac which you really need to be to succeed in law (at least as a partner in litigation). Cue massive internal struggle every day.

Oh and the hours. And exhaustion. And the constant fighting with the other side, the judge and often your own clients.

And the egos. The huge dripping egos.

I took a different route, moved down to a 4 day week and less pay. Now it's bearable (on some days) but if I had my time again (have to stick at it for a bit as now pregnant so need to wait until kid(s) school age) but if I had my time again I'd do something different.

Just advise him to make sure this is what he really wants. It's a tough old slog and I think it's just going to get harder and harder.

As long as he has passion for it, he'll be ok. If it's about the money, there's plenty of other jobs which pay just as well.

Given some of the salaries quoted here, not that many! I think looking at all the specialisms barristers can do (and solicitors) is a good start. Everyone thinks barristers are only in the criminal courts because that tends to be standard tv portrayal of the Law in action, plus Amal
Cluney of course and occasionally Cherie Blair. There is a huge array of specialisms and some barristers don’t go to court very often at all. They may spend more time on public enquiries.