DD refusing contact

[snowflakesandstrawberries]

Long long long contact order case mainly due to DD 11 refusing to see abusive exh, both because of history and his current behaviour and environment.

For the last two contacts, DD has flatly refused to go, floating around at friends' and my house and ignoring his many abusive messages. He doesn't even know where she is, and hasn't asked to see if she is communicating with me. He hasn't asked me if I know where she is, or told me he doesn't know where she is. He just leaves hundreds of disgusting voicemails to her along the lines of "get back here now or else". He took DS back from contact to DM and said he didn't know where DD was.

I can't out myself by saying why, but I know he can't afford to take me back to court now (after a 4 year case).

• do I raise the issue that he doesn't know where she is, so as far as he is concerned, she is missing and he has done nothing at all about it?

• do I tell him where she is, effectively ensuring he will collect her and continue his abuse?

• how much trouble can I get into for not ensuring contact takes place, even though he isn't doing anything about it either? This kind of thing has been used against me in the past.

• should I be doing anything?

Apologies now as I will quite possibly drip feed, as this story has the most ridiculous background ever.

Well, legally, the court order presumably orders you to make her available, and her "floating around" won't be much of a defence.

The abuse will though, and at 11 CAFCASS should listen to her views. Legally, you should apply for a variation and I would consider reporting the abuse to Children's Services, particularly if you have proof in the form of texts or voicemails. You could wait for him to enforce the order (if he's broke, he would get a fee remission on the application fee and he could represent himself) but that might put you on the back foot.

He's to collect her from school and return her to school. I was working and didn't really know where she was for the most part, except for last night when she turned up to sleep. I text him to inform him where she was and he didn't respond. I'm not sure there's a lot more I can do really.

I couldn't cope with a return to court, emotionally or financially. And they hinted that the children would go into care if the parents could not get along for the sake of the children. He makes no effort to do so, making it impossible even.

I understand your dilemma and at 11 there is no way she should have to go with him if he is treating her like that.

That said, I would be concerned that you don't know where she is? Obviously from your point of view he was in charge of her so you weren't to know he hadn't collected her, but if you did know she wasn't there, 11 is very young to be "floating around".

That said, I would be concerned that you don't know where she is?

So would I tbh.

You don't know where your 11 year old is?

I've got an 11 year old DS and 9 y/o DD and they are allowed to play out, go to shop, friends house and stay home alone for a couple of hours (DS not so much DD) I think they have a lot of freedom. I do however know where they are.

I am separated from their dad, it's probably a lot more amicable than your situation but they sometimes don't want to go to dads. I think they're old enough to deal with telling him themselves now so don't get too involved in arrangements, is this possible for you or would he have too much freedom to be abusive?

I don't think you should let your children just ignore him and his requests for contact though, it'll only make him angry.

Ems, you know where you think your children are, just like the op. I read that the op assumed her dd was with her father, until she turned up at her house.

Its really troubling that your ex didn't bother to find her, or call to let you know she wasn't with him. Is it possible to change the collection routine, so at least you know where she is?

I'm not meant to contact her on his weekends as he used to blame me for her not wanting to go. As soon as I found out what was happening, I text him, which was read and ignored. She knows the situation with court orders and that she has to go or I get into trouble.
I know all her friends and their parents so would have easily found her if I had known. However, he doesn't, so actually didn't know where she was until last night. If he refuses to communicate with me, what can I do?

If your case is that serious, then I would be very careful. You don't know that he won't take you back.

Either the abuse is enough to warrant involvement from Children's Services, or it's not enough to stop contact. At 11, she shouldn't be thinking she's somehow allowed to flout court orders. While it works in your favour now, her believing that it's okay to just not turn up where she's supposed to could easily become a bigger struggle with anyone in authority as she gets older. The fact she knows you could end up in trouble but ignores you anyway is not good.

Is she at primary school?

I do feel it is, but there has never been enough evidence to stop contact. It has always been put down to me influencing the children too much.

It doesn't benefit me when I'm coming home from work to realise my child is alone at home and he effectively thinks she is missing and has done nothing about it.

Where do you draw the line at "letting" her flout court orders and destroying her by forcing her to go. When I'm not even aware of the situation?

She doesn't have an issue with authority, she can clearly state her issues and concerns with going to her fathers house in a logical way. She is respectful etc with school and others in authority, it's just this.

She doesn't see why she should have to spend half her time there, when this means a poor diet (very health conscious), not going out for the weekend (when at home she sees her friends when she wants to), not being able to speak to her mum (who she sees as the only person who loves her), being hit and shouted at, no activities at all (not exaggeration, he will not leave the house with them and does not provide anything), having no personal items, nothing in her bedroom, issues with obtaining sanpro and underwear. The list is endless. She isn't being a stroppy teenager, she makes valid points that I can't keep justifying with "well you have to go because the order says so." It's destroying her.

You either arrange pick ups from your home or you drop her off. It is unacceptable for an 11 year old child to be wandering around unsupervised from end of school until bed time. I understand that your ex didn't inform you but as her parent it is still your responsibility to check where she is, especially when you know that she is likely to go awol.

At 11 she knows what is happening and that its not right - especially for her.
Whilst I think she was wrong to disappear and not telling him a quick text to you to tell you she was at home would have been better than you not knowing, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
My DD has refused to see her father for months, we too have a contact order in place but he, like your ex, only wants to use it to his advantage. As long as you can show you aren't obstructing the visits and are making her available but its HER choice she doesn't want to go then I cant see what him taking you back to court will achieve.
By telling her she "has to" do something will only make her dig her heels in more.
Do everything right from your side - keep your relationship strong with your DD and wait to see how he continues, it might be worth logging this with your solicitor / SS / Cafcass if applicable just so you can show you've tried to keep contact

Pick ups are to and from school. He doesn't come to the house. She wasn't literally wandering the streets, just at various friend's houses which would be a similar activity to when she is at home, although the difference would be that I would know about it and she comes home at a certain time.

My basic point is this - you have to abide by the order. If you don't you are putting yourself at risk of being taken back to court be losing "residence" or having your child put in to care. This is serious. I haven't even got in to the rest of the arguments, mostly because this is the legal board but also because it's fairly clear that the court has already set out that it wants your child to see her father. You already know that "she doesn't want to go" isn't holding any weight in court. Presumably you have already raised those issues in court and the court, on balance, felt your daughter should still have regular time with her father. Your choices are basically to let her do what she wants but risk losing her or you find a way to make her go.

If he's picking her up from school, how is she going missing?

I understand snowflake that she was at various friends homes but neither of her parents knew that. And next time she might not be. He may pick her up and drop her off at school at the moment but that is no longer a safe option for your child and should not continue. Children most negatively affected by separation are those who slip between the cracks in their parents communication. Pick ups and drop offs need to be done differently or contact has to stop.

I really don't know what to do. I can't take it back to court and I'm pretty sure he won't now.

As soon as I found out where she was, I messaged him and asked him what he wanted me to do. He read the message and didn't reply. Surely that's making her available?

Even though I didn't know exactly where she was, I do trust her that she was safe, although obviously this isn't ideal. If he had let me know that he didn't know where she was, I would have been able to find her within minutes. But he won't communicate with me.

I'm now torn between telling her that she has to respond to him, or she has to tell me where she is if she isn't going. I know she won't communicate with him, but the second option puts me at more risk of being seen as breaking the order. But at least one of us would know where she was?

WRT pick ups, this was deemed the best way of ensuring she attends. But she just tells him she's going out with her mates and walks off. He lets her. She will soon be at high school, where she is expected to catch two buses and ride across the city for around 2 hours to get to his, whereas she can walk home. This is only going to get worse.

I think you need to be very clear that She needs to let you know where she is if she isn't going with him. She should be texting you after school every day to confirm her whereabouts. If she isn't willing to do this then she isn't "adult" enough to be making the decision herself.

Worst case something happens to her and both parents think she is with the other.

Otherwise I wouldn't be making her go. As long as you know where she is at all times.

I'm actually really quite concerned that he didn't know where she was all weekend, but was still too stubborn to contact me. If she hasn't have come home last night, I wouldn't have even known there was an issue.

She will happily tell me where she is, but isn't that me just condoning her not going.

She didn't tell me because she knew I would make her go.

So he turns up to pick her up from school and she tells him she's not going with him but going to a friend's instead? And her just lets her?

Well I can't see that YOU'RE obstructing his contact in that case if he just lets her go off with someone else - at 11 presumably he could just say no and force her to go with him. I think you need to tell her to to him very specifically 'I'm going to Lucy's house today'. And she then needs to tell you where she is.

And if she tells you she's at Lucy's I'd say you should text him saying 'Lucy lives at 123 High Street so pick her up from there by 5.30. If you don't I will assume you dont want contact this weekend and bring her home.'

Wow that sounds like a watertight plan but I need a lot of confidence with him to pull it off! I will definitely try. Not that he answers my messages.

Btw that's the exact thing that I have been in trouble for before - because I am making her think like that...

Making her think like what? You categorically should be encouraging her to go, and not supporting her buggering off to Lucy's, but equally you need to know where she is - her safety is paramount. And if he is effectively allowing her to go elsewhere it's within his gift to change that behaviour, not yours.

Have you thought about involving school in the handovers by the way? Maybe ask him to pick her up 10 mins early, and let school know that's what you've done, even though he might ignore it. At least you've actively tried to make sure she goes.

So she's in year 6 and ignores her dad and ignores you but "doesn't have a problem with authority". Umm okay..

She's a child. How on earth has she come to believe that she gets to choose? Don't her friend's parents check with you when she turns up unannounced at their houses?

Neither of you seem to be stepping up and acting like adults tbh. Reading through the lines, I can see why the court came to the conclusion that it did.

He is allowing her to go. Collecting her from school wouldn't change this, he lets her go, but then makes no attempt to get her back.

She isn't ignoring me. She knows she isn't meant to contact me on his weekends. She's actually obeying at least part of the instructions. Me trying to find out where she is actually goes against the court order!!

They are a group of friends that are always in and out of each other's houses, no questions asked. Half the issue of contact is that she hasn't been allowed to do this for years, and she is sick of spending her time sitting on his sofa being miserable waiting to go home.