Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Aunt in nursing home and her 'friend' has disposed of her possessions, please advise...

95 replies

CoffeeBreakIn5 · 10/04/2017 23:50

My aunt is in a nursing home and has Alzheimer's disease, she has been there for 2.5 years and my father is legally responsible for her affairs. When she was taken into the home after a fall, her friend remained living in her house, he had moved there a year earlier after his wife was taken into a nursing home where she still remains. The friend is elderly and frail, he was a good companion to my Aunt and so the issue of him living in the house was never challenged as we believe that she would want him to stay there and social services told us that he had rights to remain there due to his age and poor health.

Since my father was granted Deputy for her affairs a few months ago the Office of Public Guardian have met with him and they are concerned about the friend living there without paying rent. The house is owned fully by my Aunt and there is no mortgage, he took over paying all utilities. After another letter from OPG he brought the subject up with the friend who didn't engage with the conversation. My father felt compromised because social services had already advised that because the friend is elderly he couldn't be asked to leave anyway.

2 weeks ago a relative of the friend contacted my father's place of work and told him that the friend had moved out and that they would bring him the keys to the property. This morning they still hadn't brought the keys and so I contacted the relative who said he didn't know where they were as the friend still had them and that he hadn't been to the property other than to drive past to check on it. He said that he could probably get the keys in the next few hours and that we could collect them from him tonight.

There have been a few issues with the friend's family in the past. When my Aunt initially took ill and was taken into hospital his relative gave her own details as her next of kin and emergency contact, she knew my father was always this person but did not even inform him that she had taken ill. He found out a few days later when he went to visit and found that she was not there, the friend told him where she was. When my Aunt was moved to the nursing home a meeting took place between social services, my father and the friend's family. I was not at the meeting but afterwards the friend and his family have made no contact, my father has checked in on the friend a few times but has been made to feel unwelcome.

My father collected the keys today and has been round to find that there is nothing left in the house, the house was fully furnished and full of my Aunt's possessions when she lived there and was filled with same things the last time the friend was visited by my family. Every last possession has gone. My father went to the friend's new house to be told by the friend that he has donated everything to charity and that my father didn't show an interest in any of her things so he gave them all away. He admitted to having the dining suite in his spare room and the cabinet was in his living room. My father didn't ever ask about the possessions previously to this because he didn't want to appear to be hassling an elderly man. He (naively) thought that if the friend left then he would leave my aunt's possessions as they were. It transpires from a neighbour that friend's family were there today after I'd spoken to them about returning the key and the friend has said he'd given a lot of the possessions to them.

My Aunt is still alive, my father is looking after her assets. What on earth can he do from a legal perspective? They have taken the fence, decking, garden gate and a shed. They have also taken all appliances from the kitchen. All that is left is a sofa and a bed.

OP posts:
TestingTestingWonTooFree · 15/04/2017 09:49

I wonder whether there's any cause of action against social services. They sound negligent at best.

Greenkit · 15/04/2017 09:58

Have a look round the local charity shops and see if you can locate any of her items, pawn shops and the like. You could take a photo of the family and see if anyone recognises them.

This is a horrendous act by the 'friend' and family, I feel for you

CoffeeBreakIn5 · 15/04/2017 12:13

bluebel thank you, I've just spoken to Age UK but with it being bank holiday they can't help until Tuesday and they said Action for Elder Abuse would probably be what they would recommend. So they're also on my list for Tuesday. Thanks so much for the advice, it's good to know I'm doing the right thing by taking it further since the authorities don't seem to think anything needs further action.

ohtoblazes it would seem so! Apparently we can't prove what agreement was made between my aunt and her 'friend' before she was taken into the home so therefore we can't prove anything. I feel so let down by the police who haven't even kept their appointment. They said the phone call was enough information.

Once I have sought advice I'll have a clearer idea on what I can approach social services with. I also need to see who from the home was (if any) in on the meeting with social services when they told my family that the 'friend' should stay. Just so we have further evidence than just my family's word. I'm trying to gather up as much information as possible without involving my parents, they don't need this stress and aren't in the best of health themselves.

Greenkit the problem with the charity shops is that the possessions were taken over a month ago and there are none local to the house. There are a few towns nearby which I'm going to drive around next week. I very much doubt that the photographs and pictures were taken there, I think they will have gone to the tip. The jewellery and expensive items (which I know she had) will either have been sold or kept to sell later. I'm going to try the charity shops though, it's worth a go.

I

OP posts:
whataboutbob · 15/04/2017 12:27

Coffee what you say in your 8 o'clock post is to my mind very good evidence that your aunt may not have had capacity to make a will in 2011. The more it can be proven that she was showing signs of mental decline then, the better your case against the "friend" and his family if she wrote a will in their favour in 2011.
I'm glad you are not being all nice and English about this. I know it is not seemly to have expectations of inheritance and I think a lot of scammers rely partly on families being shamed into not appearing grabby.
Your aunt my live on several more years and much of her capital may disappear in care fees. However, if there is anything left and she has written a will in their favour, if it were me I would be challenging the validity of that will before they receive anything. I'm no lawyer but I'd say you and your Dad would have a good case.

prh47bridge · 15/04/2017 14:30

Neither she nor her legal guardian (your Father) authorised their disposal

The problem for the police is that, whilst it is clear that her legal guardian did not authorise the disposal, we have no idea what the aunt did or when. If, while she was still competent to make such decisions, she told her friend that they could have the entire contents of the house if she went into a nursing home that would give them authorisation.

CoffeeBreakIn5 - You can clearly challenge the will if your aunt did not have testamentary capacity when it was made. If that is the case this will is invalid and her previous will is still valid.

wherearemymarbles · 16/04/2017 23:28

Maybe you can find out if a new will was actually made?

If so, whilst she is alive your father should spend a much as possible on your aunt. Move her into the most expensive home he can find or better, rent somewhere for her to live and get 24 hour per day private care. That little lot should eat up her estate!

JanetBrown2015 · 17/04/2017 17:03

Dp you know what the value was of the stuff? When my parents died not a single thing in the house had resale value and we had to pay about £600 to get it all cleared out. Even second hand furniture these days cannot easily be resold so it is possible by clearing the house they have saved her a lot of money in house clearance charges!

It probably makes sense to put the house up for sale immediately under the power of attorney if there is one.

AlexanderHamilton · 17/04/2017 17:18

I don't know whether this is a route you could pursue but when my grandmother was in a care home she wasn't allowed to dispose of assets or make gifts of more than a certain amount as this is what some people do to try & get out of paying the care home fees.

My mum & aunt had to account for anything they spent on her behalf e.g. Clothes etc. She only rented so her house had to be cleared out but they had to prove that anything of worth was put towardsher fees.

CoffeeBreakIn5 · 18/04/2017 20:08

I've followed a few lines of enquiry thanks to the great advice on this thread, I'm not sure what can be done but at least I feel like I'm doing something for my aunt. She doesn't deserve to be stolen from.

bluebel I contacted Action on Elder Abuse today and they were very helpful, they have a solicitor that specialises in these kinds of cases and they are passing my details to him. We have to pay of course but it will be worth it just to do the right thing by my aunt. They advised me to contact the solicitor who holds the most recent copy of the will which I did. They said that they have to write to my aunt as a matter of course but if my dad shows them ID and a copy of the court order then he is allowed a copy. It actually replaces the one that is missing from the house.

So no results as yet but things are looking more promising in that there are people who are willing to try and help. It didn't feel like this last week. Whataboutbob my parents are very nice and English about things which is partly how this happened in the first place, it's hard not to be but I'm determined that I don't care if I look grabby if it sorts things out. Totally not me! But someone has to do something .

Janet this is what my dad has said which is correct to a point, it would have cost quite a bit and there would be nowhere that we could have stored much of it. But, there were family photographs, documents, jewellery and watches, lots of semtimental things that we'll never see again. I didn't realise that Alexander but she is self funding so it's being eaten up pretty quickly anyway. I'll have to look into that.

Thanks again for the advice and support everyone. It's helping at the most crappiest time and I'm grateful.

OP posts:
DavidbowieMime · 18/04/2017 21:03

Sorry if I have missed this but you also need to write to MP urgently - I have past experience with police in similar situation and once its happened hard to un do Sad however I kicked up stink to MP and also got court order on my stuff....was hard to get cant remember how I did it - court staff were awful as well.

Obv its been mentioned but any photos of aunts house etc pictures with stuff tyr and make mental lists...of course it wasnt bloody empty - police are fobbing you off - go higher.

AdaColeman · 18/04/2017 21:22

That's a very good idea about contacting the MP.

I'd also make a point of mentioning the dubious "advice" given by the social worker, especially as you know their name. It might be possible to get a copy of the notes taken at the meeting, perhaps now part of your Aunt's file?

Though it wouldn't shock me if her file was reported as "lost".

I very much hope you will get some satisfaction for your Aunt.

whataboutbob · 18/04/2017 21:39

Glad to hear you no longer care about being nice and English coffee! I used to not want to be pushy/ loud but at some point I think life forces you to channel your inner tough nut. I'm really pleased to hear you and your Dad are fighting back. There are many avenues these people can be challenged on, maybe they weren't reckoning on getting any resistance, well it sounds like they could be in for a rethink!

winewolfhowls · 22/04/2017 21:46

Good luck, don't let the buggers get you down

Whereismumhiding2 · 23/04/2017 12:54

To a PP, they weren't 'badly advised by social services' about letting an older person who had moved into care for her, continue to live there. That would be a reason as would disregard value of house in her estate for care home fees.

But he should have been paying rent once she moved into care.

The social worker would have said to get legal advice and it is all over the financial documents/handouts to get independent legal & financial advice on these kinds of matters.

It is theft. The person who took her belongings cannot claim family 'were not interested in them'. Contact adult services dept after you contact police as this is financial abuse by the old man against the lady in the care home and will be a joint safeguarding adults investigation. The police will be leading it as it is a criminal offence first and foremost. But ASD will also be able to share relevant information and also Any of the old man's family who were party to emptying out the house (he can't have done it alone!) are party to the theft. Police can recover stolen items from his home and theirs, especially looking for any evidence he or they sold items including jewellery. It also adds to local intelligence in these people, so if they do it to someone else and their name is used with to police or that ASD, it may get flagged up.

It's too late now but family ought have done a full inventory and removed valuable items at the start when she entered care home. It is still her house and he had no rights to her property other than an elected agreement to stay there (if she gave it). If asd were involved and actually had deputyship with court of protection (it doesn't sound like they did , it sounds more that someone had appointeeship with DWP which isn't about property or financial affairs, but is about ensuring someone gets their state benefits only), then they would have taken an inventory and police could use that. Dig out any photos you have of inside of the house.

Whereismumhiding2 · 23/04/2017 13:02

Best tactic is to report it as safeguarding financial abuse concern now to adult services, give them the police crime number and they will chase up police too.

Whereismumhiding2 · 23/04/2017 13:14

Nb. ASD would only have disregarded property in above scenario if it was older man friends only address (not if owned or rented another property anywhere)

Whereismumhiding2 · 23/04/2017 13:31

Op the point about any will is that it is wrt disposal of assets when someone is dead, not when they are alive as she still is! Your Dad had PoA so it is still theft as oldermanfriend didn't get permission (although if 'have all my stuff in house' was actually written in new will, then fhat might indicate an intention on her part that you might have taken note if selling house). As her POA yiu can get copy of will. Also people can't gift items when thinking of going into care, so it could be a deprivation of asserts which ASD could challenge (i.e. pursue gift receiver) if she gifted her house to anyone whilst having any form of care /and needing someone to live in to look after her.

Whereismumhiding2 · 23/04/2017 13:42

@CoffeeBreakIn5
HTH.
It's not for you to prove he didn't have permission to sell items or empty her house. If police eventually decide not in public interests to pursue there is still a Safeguarding and you have civil route, which you can use your Poa and her estate funds to pursue. Unless she had put it in writing to him, he would be hard pushed in light of your OP to persuade a judge of that. His actions, when you were reasonably asking for rent, are not those that reflect well on him.

CoffeeBreakIn5 · 27/04/2017 19:59

Thanks for the information, the problem we have is that the police say that there is no criminal activity as we can't prove it so we have no crime number. They are not interested.

I have contacted Action on Elder Abuse who have passed my contact details to a solicitor who I'm waiting to hear form. I plan on chasing this up tomorrow but it seems like no one is interested at all and I really don't know where to go with it.

My dad requested a copy of the will, the solicitor has arranged this and we will be collecting it in a few weeks. They had to write to my aunt as a matter of course and they have to give ample time for her to respond. Once we have seen the will we may have a stronger position because it was updated in 2011. Either that or we will be in a worse position because if she's included them in it it could show her intent to let them have all of her possessions.

I'm not really any further on with any of this and I feel like I've exhausted all avenues.

OP posts:
whataboutbob · 27/04/2017 21:56

Coffee if you can show that in 2011 the dementia was already encroaching upon her you would have good grounds to have the will discounted.Evidence from GP notes (check how long they keep them. sometime s it's only 8 years so be prepared to act fast) would be quite powerful, if she was already attending in 2011 or before with memory problems. Any corroborating evidence from non interested parties eg neighbours, people at her church if she had one etc, would also be good

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread