Confusion after death of dad - funeral and money related

[chestnutmare]

I need some advice please. I'll try to include all the details below, as much as I know anyway. This might be long, sorry in advance :)

My dad died a few months ago. We're in Scotland in case it makes a difference. He had no will.

Three kids, me, my brother and sister, all adults. I don't think it's relevant, but my brother and I were adopted by him after he married our mum, they then had my younger sister.

None of us had any contact with him for quite a few years before he died, due to his behaviour before he and my mum split up and divorced. There wasn't much money when they divorced (house was repossessed), they each came away with £7.5k.

When he died (think he was only 62) he had been living in various care homes for several years, due to being unable to care for himself. He had a condition similar to Alzheimer's. He was already in the care home when the divorce was finalised so as far as we know he was never well enough to spend the money.

My siblings and I only found out he had died through word of mouth locally. We weren't even sure which care home he was in when he died, although we believe he had been in a few different ones around the area over the past few years.

His sister (my aunt) contacted my sister after he died to say she'd organise the funeral and did my sister have any requests? My sister said no and so the funeral was organised by my aunt. She originally said it would be a crematorium service but ended up being at the local church. My brother and sister attended the funeral but I did not, as I was abroad at the time.

My sister received a letter from my aunt today, saying that, as my siblings and I are legal next of kin, we are liable for the funeral costs.

What we want to know is, could this be correct? We had no say in any of his care leading up to his death, wasn't even notified when he died, so it seems strange that all of sudden we are next of kin when a bill needs to be paid?

My aunt has been dealing with everything up to now, including the Department of Work and Pensions and the funeral directors. The Department of W&P paid out £2.5k directly to the funeral directors for part payment of the funeral costs, saying that was all the money they held in his name. There was also a small pension payment of £140 paid directly into my aunts account, which she has forwarded onto my sister in the form of a cheque.

I spoke informally to a solicitor today and he said we need to find out if there was anything in his estate. I doubt there'd be much, but his own mother died last year and apparently he was left money by her.

If anyone can shed any light on our situation I'd be really grateful.

I sympathise and it must be horrible to be suddenly faced with a demand for money for the funeral of your NC parent. But I also agree with pp that I do not think it fair that you should assume that your aunt would pay for the funeral costs. It appears that she has shouldered responsibility for organising it and to have been diligent in forwarding sums of money that she believed were due to your sister, and in trying to engage you with the decision-making about it.

She's perhaps also hurt that none of you offered to help? What has your relationship with your aunt been previously?

We've never had any relationship with our aunt, I wouldn't recognise her if I passed her in the street. I find it hard to believe she'd have expected help from us in planning the funeral, when she knew we'd had no contact him for at least 8 years previously.

Sunna, she WAS the closer family though. She and her two brothers. I haven't considered him to be 'family' for a very long time, because of his own behaviour.

Could my aunt have refused to pay the costs of the funeral? Surely she could have refused to organise it if she had wanted to?

"There was also a small pension payment of £140 paid directly into my aunts account, which she has forwarded onto my sister in the form of a cheque"

Your sister should pay this to the funeral director.

...or return the cheque to Aunt.

You mentioned he was in a care home when the divorce was finalised, and that his behaviour led to the split and divorce, which suggests there wasn't a long gap between the difficulties with your mum and him having to go into care (at a very young age). Were the changes in his behaviour linked to his condition? You don't have to answer, I'm just interested because of a similiar situation I know of.

FWIW in your situation what I would do would depend on a lot of factors. Could the aunt afford to pay, can you/your siblings afford to pay, how much are we talking about, was he good to you/your mum before they split, what would your mum have wanted? The answers to those would affect what I would do, the Aunt shouldn't have arranged the funeral on your behalf though. Does the aunt know there is money to come to you - perhaps from her mother and thinks you can just pay out of that? Who is executor?

She could have just said the budget was the DWP funds available….

But I suspect that when she contacted your sister re requests, she felt that was the discussion re who would pay.

Perhaps she has also been looking after your Father in the care home, and sorting out his affairs, for all these years, without understanding your estrangement from him, or the reasons for it.

Were I you, and were I in the position to do so I would offer to share costs with her, her surviving brother and your siblings. In the meantime, potentially the estate can pay for it.

Yes that's true FATEdestiny, it can go towards the funeral costs. I'm not sure why it wasn't used to go towards the funeral in the first place.

Petalunicorn - kind of, he was an alcoholic, which led to the breakdown of his marriage. We had a poor relationship with him even before he and my mum split up, we never got on. I remember some very bad times growing up. My mum is very annoyed at this current situation but she never got on with his side of the family so that doesn't surprise me really.

I don't know for sure if there is money to come to us. As he had no will, I doubt anyone will be in any rush to tell us! Not that we want anything from him anyway.

Yes TheRealMary, if she had arranged the crematorium funeral as she first indicated, pretty much all of the costs would have been covered by the DWP funds. Not sure why she changed her mind and organised the church and burial instead. Definitely not on the say so of any of us.

Estranged or not his children are his closest kin in law. Your aunt did the right thing by forwarding the cheque, I think his children should do the right thing by paying for the funeral.

if she had arranged the crematorium funeral as she first indicated, pretty much all of the costs would have been covered by the DWP funds. Not sure why she changed her mind and organised the church and burial instead. Definitely not on the say so of any of us.

There is your answer, Sunna. the aunt made more expensive choices for the funeral, she can't expect others to pay for those choices.

The family were asked what they wanted and didn't respond, she probably assumed they were happy to let her make the choices.

Re the possibility of him owning property:

You need to speak to a solicitor and ask him to instruct a search of the Registers of Scotland regarding this. Depending on the information obtained, you may also be able to get a copy of the will or a copy of the confirmation/certificate of confirmation of his DMs executor and thus get in touch with the solicitors acting for her estate and find out the true circumstances. All this information will also be available from Registers of Scotland.

It sounds as if your aunt has entered into a contract with the funeral directors and thus she is legally responsible for any and all costs incurred. Should she seek to recover those costs, that is a separate matter and would probably require legal action of some sort. In instances like this, the law would consider the concept of reasonability. While it reasonable to make arrangements for the funeral, it may not be seen as reasonable to incur additional costs over and above a simple "no frills" cremation. Things like floral tributes may not be covered etc. You don't know what is included in this bill.

Again, you and your siblings need to speak to a solicitor about this. At the moment you do not appear to be under any legal obligation to accept any debts your aunt has occurred through this funeral, far less any "additional extras" she may or may not have instructed.

The family were asked what they wanted and didn't respond, she probably assumed they were happy to let her make the choices.

No, she appears to have said it would be a crematorium service and asked if there were any requests. There were no requests and the sister therefore has agreed to the crematorium service, not any expensive extras the aunt has deemed appropriate. Any extras above what was agreed at the start are down to the aunt to pay for.

The sister did respond to being asked if there were any requests.

Sunna you're being really insistent here when everyone else on the thread is agreeing that the OP has no responsibility. Why do you care so much? I think you're protesting a little too much and even if you aren't the aunt in question you're unusually invested in the OP and her siblings having to cough up hundreds of pounds, which makes me wonder whether you had your own family quarrel about a similar issue?

In this case, the aunt clearly could have done this within the funds available and clearly knew that her brother's estranged children wanted nothing to do with this and clearly must have signed documents taking personal responsibility and is clearly the only one who bears any responsibility as the situation is entirely of her own making.

If the cheapest options available had still exceeded the funds available the aunt would be reasonable to seek contributions to the difference from all related people, but that is just not the case.

OP just ignore Sunna's posts - everyone else thinks you're not responsible here.

Fish, maybe I am overinvested, maybe you are.

I paid for the funerals of both my very much loved parents and certainly didn't expect their brothers and sisters to contribute, it was my responsibility - morally if not legally. I'm not the only one who thinks there is an obligation on the children, either.

Perhaps they should pay a share of the minimum cost and tell the aunt she'll have to pay for the rest that she arranged without consultation.

If the children had no intention of paying for the funeral of their father, then they should have made that clear to the aunt from the outset.

The DWP do not automatically pay for funerals, as it happens, they chase the next of kin deemed able to contribute. My sis used to work for them and that was part of her job.

I'm going to apologise before I write in case I am totally wrong here. The general consensus is taking legal advice and that in law you are probably not liable. Not saying anything different as I don't know.
What I wondered was if you have any happy memories before he became an alcoholic and if maybe you might get some closure in saying goodbye to the man he was before illness took hold of him. Contributing would obviously depend on your means but helping, even a little may help heal a family rift. The aunt has acknowledged you all by asking your wishes, she may have acted in good faith at a time when she is grieving the loss of her brother who she appears to have cared for. I'm really sorry if this is completely wrong but it would be a shame to miss an opportunity to build some bridges even in such a sad situation.

Sunna - I think if you read the OPs posts it appears that a considerable sum of money has already been paid towards the funeral - and not by the aunt.

the situation here is not similar to your own and it isn't helpful to make comparisons. By the time you reach a certain age, most of us have organised funerals for our parent/s and the law is quite clear - the funeral expenses come out of the deceased's estate. if you chose to pay for your parents' funerals then that is your personal choice, as is the type of funeral you chose.

In this case - all the siblings were estranged from their father, there was £2.5k paid by DWP and the aunt made the arrangements, authorising the funeral directors to go ahead. Even if she always intended to pass this cost onto the siblings, that should have been made clear to them at the start.

The headstone is way out of order and her sole responsibility to pay for.

There is a clear difference between a legal responsibility and a moral one. The siblings were all estranged from their father, who was an alcoholic - which suggests there may be reasons why they feel no moral responsibility towards his funeral cost that OP doesn't wish to go into in any depth.

I think you & your sister should split the remaining cost, use the cheque your sister already got, then that leaves £300 ish each.
Your aunt forwarded the cheque on to your sister so surely she has been trying to act in good faith on your fathers behalf.

Katie, I only mentioned our circumstances because Fish raised the issue.

I agree the headstone is not their responsibility. And also agree with Fanny that the aunt acted in good faith.

Yes, I get that Sunna - but as you state your parents were "much loved" it's clear your circumstances are totally different to the OPs.

If you discovered next week that your DF was not your birth parent and your birth father had died intestate, would you feel an obligation to then pay for a stranger's funeral just because you had a "relationship" with him?

"Acting in good faith" would mean that she then honoured the obligations she entered into by signing the contract with the funeral directors - they agreed to provided the specific services the aunt requested. If it turns out that a funeral could have taken place for £2500, then anything the aunt requested that took the total over that figure would only be her debt, not one which could be transferred over. The aunt, after all, knew the circumstances, both of the long-standing estrangement and that her brother had little money. In these circumstances, unless the aunt was prepared to pay for any excess costs, the reasonable thing to do would be to go for the most basic funeral package.

Should this become a formal legal matter, these are the factual issues that would be considered. The aunt assumed legal responsibility for the funeral and at no time informed the siblings they would be expected to pay for anything.

If you discovered next week that your DF was not your birth parent and your birth father had died intestate, would you feel an obligation to then pay for a stranger's funeral just because you had a "relationship" with him?

Yes. I would view it as a moral obligation.

The DWP payment went directly to the funeral director. The smaller pension payment of £140 went directly into my aunts bank account. I assume she didn't then use that to go towards funeral costs as she didn't want any of the remaining costs to come from her.

I'm almost certain the funeral costs would have been covered by the DWP fund if she had gone for the crematorium as planned. On the bill from the funeral director that my sister received yesterday, there are quite a few costs that would not have been incurred had she gone for the crematorium. For starters, the church service and burial site were 30 miles away from where he died and also from the crematorium location, so transportation costs must be higher than they could have been. Things like hymn sheets and the wake afterwards are also on the bill.

Just to say thanks again for all the advice and thoughts on this matter. This is a situation we never expected to find ourselves in so this thread has definitely been useful :)

Well, that says a lot about you.

But I' sure you also realise that many people would not feel the same. Or that people might feel no moral obligation to a parent who had been abusive.

Chestnut - yes, the additional costs such as transport would have to come from your aunt's own funds. The hymn sheets were unnecessary as I've yet to come across a church that did not have hymn books and therefore also fall to your aunt to pay. And the wake is definitely not a legitimate funeral expense - so again she has to cough up the dosh.

None of these could be construed as "acting in good faith" when she had the knowledge there were limited funds and did not have the express or implied authority of the very people she then expected to pick up the bill.

Are the funeral flowers also on the bill you are expected to pay??

Seriously, seek legal advice - it might only take a solicitor's letter to put her gas at a peep.