Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Original poster

fraudulant legal aid claim

85 replies

shanzu · 17/04/2011 22:14

what would happen if I didnt declare some savings in an application for legal aid? would I get caught? I have already been to 1 solicitor and was turned down because my savings were too much - is this tracable?

OP posts:
ChristinedePizan · 18/04/2011 09:50

You can be traced, even if your user name is anonymous. You're considering theft and fraud, even if the money is meant for your children.

Personally I wouldn't risk it - if you're about to become a single parent, you really don't want to risk a custodial sentence do you? And if there's any chance your ex knows about the money and finds out you're claiming legal aid fraudulently, you're screwed.

Can't your dad lend you the money?

KatieMiddleton · 18/04/2011 10:48

Ok I see why you can't move it. You've invested your children's money in your name so you can't just get it out without risking losing some of it and you're far to greedy to do that and would prefer it if the tax payer would pay to sort out your messy marital problem. Lovely Hmm

Btw I am not a solicitor but I worked in financial services for ten years including dealing with trust funds, trust law, fraud and money-laundering prevention.

In my professional and voluntary work I have dealt with various agencies so I know from experience they check. You are asked to sign a declaration and may have to provide evidence up front of your holdings. Where fraud is suspected they can also contact financial service companies to confirm your holdings without asking you and/or report you to anti-money laundering agencies.

Solicitors also have very strict anti-money laundering regulations, which if they fail to follow can lead to criminal prosecution in addition to professional sanctions that could end their career. I would not be at all surprised if the solicitor you spoke to had already reported your request to defraud via their anti-money laundering process.

I'm not going to to tell you any more because I don't see why you should be entitled to abuse the system and I don't think this money was your children's until you decided the tax payer should foot the bill for your divorce.

TheBossofMe · 18/04/2011 12:11

Couldn't agree more, KM - its rare I reply to OPs like this, but the legal aid system is a precious resource and I'm incensed that someone would even post such a question.

Shanzu - no such thing as locked, its just you will possibly lose a bit of money. You should have invested it in your children's name in the first place if it was theirs. Its easy enough to do in even the most specialised investments - i know because I've done it myself.

Its pretty easy to trace if its in an ISA since the ISA is linked to your NI number, so not a whole heap of work is required to find out, just a simple check vs your NI number, which I'm almost positive is carried out (its thge same process that allows them to check your earnings as well, isn't it?). So I'd say your chances of being found out are pretty high.

ElsieMc · 18/04/2011 13:33

If you have an opposing party, is it possible they are aware you hold these savings on whatever basis?

I challenged someone's right to legal aid. They had gone to one solicitor about a child contact issue, but then gone to another solicitor to purchase a property (cash)and not disclosed this. Their legal aid was revoked. It can be revoked or discharged. Revoked means you would have to pay back all monies and discharged means that your certificate would be withdrawn.

I would be upfront as suggested then it is up to the Legal Services Commission to make the decision.

TheBossofMe · 18/04/2011 14:35

And btw every application is vetted.

TheBossofMe · 18/04/2011 14:35

And btw every application is vetted.

Original poster
shanzu · 18/04/2011 16:15

i am not interested in anyones opinion of my moral or intellectual character. i just wanted answers to a question

OP posts:
Collaborate · 18/04/2011 16:18

Haven't people got the wrong end of the stick here? OP might actually be holding the money on trust, in which case it isn't hers. Proving it might be another matter, but some people have got on to some pretty high horses.

ChristinedePizan · 18/04/2011 17:35

I think the title is pretty clear: fraudulent legal aim claim

It's perfectly possible to put money in trust for children legally but you don't get the fat tax breaks that you do if you pretend it's your money. Unfortunately, that also means you're not entitled to legal aid.

I don't have a whole heap of sympathy I'm afraid

Original poster
shanzu · 18/04/2011 17:53

if someone gives you something to look after for someone else- do you think it is yours because it is in your possession??

Its not my Fing money!

OP posts:
KatieMiddleton · 18/04/2011 18:04

Yeah good luck with that argument. Has it even crossed your tiny mind that all of these regulations and options exist for a reason? You are NOT entitled.

Bet you wish you'd not been so greedy now don't you?

Original poster
shanzu · 18/04/2011 18:22

Katie...I thought you wasnt going to say any more because prattle prattle...yawn.....

havent you got a Daily Mail you could be reading?

OP posts:
KatieMiddleton · 18/04/2011 18:33

I said I wasn't going to post any more that might help you commit fraud.

Daily Mail? Pmsl. Really not my thing and I think you'll find the majority of people regardless of what paper they take find stealing tax payer's money pretty scummy.

Collaborate · 18/04/2011 18:48

This is the legal bit of the forum, so let's concentrate on the law.
If person A gives money to person B and says "that's not for you, but for C. Look after it for them" it doesn't belong to person B. That should not mean that person B should be denied legal aid or benefits. The moral majority would have lots to say about B misappropriating C's money.
Proving it is another matter however. Nevertheless we should be charitable enough to avoid jumping to hasty and judgmental conclusions about a person we don't know, however ill advised the title of this thread.

ChristinedePizan · 18/04/2011 19:24

Except there is no reason for A not to give the money straight to C apart from B avoiding tax. And if B gains financially through holding the money for C, then it sticks in my gullet somewhat that B is trying to screw even more money out of the taxpayer than she already has. Sorry if that isn't in the spirit of the legal forum but in any case, I think the OP's question has already been answered. She will be found out if she lies about the money.

Collaborate · 18/04/2011 19:45

You can't possibly think it uncommon for grandparents to gift to grandchildren via a parent. Get real.

Original poster
shanzu · 18/04/2011 19:46

i find it bizarre that you think like that - it never entered my head to 'avoid tax' or 'screw more money'. I am neither that motivated by money or that financially savvy. My dad and his financial advisor orchestrated the investment- I made my bank account and signature available. How am I gaining by 'holding the money for C'?

And I AM a taxpayer and have been my entire adult life, I dont and never have claimed benefits

I think a few of you are projecting your own conniving and greedy natures on to me.

But, yes I think it probably has been established that if i tried to obtain legal aid by not declaring these monies, I would most likely be discovered. (although no one has really sourced their information - any muppet can come on here and say 'yes you will be caught')

I am encouraged by Collaborates opinion (thanks) that I may be able to declare the investment and still be eligible for LA

OP posts:
KatieMiddleton · 18/04/2011 19:50

Agree with CP. We've covered off the law, we all agree it is illegal. OP is motivated by greed and has a ridiculous sense of entitlement. OP has shown no remorse or valid mitigation so some of us have moved onto the moral aspect too in the hope the OP will see sense.

Do we have a flogging-a-dead-horse emoticon?

KatieMiddleton · 18/04/2011 19:53

"No one has really sourced their information" We're not going to tell you how to commit fraud! I gave my qualification and that's all the help you're getting from me.

Original poster
shanzu · 18/04/2011 19:55

do we have a f**k off emoticon?

OP posts:
Original poster
shanzu · 18/04/2011 19:55

remorse for what exactly????

OP posts:
KatieMiddleton · 18/04/2011 19:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Earlybird · 18/04/2011 19:57

How much in savings - approximately?

Are you a little over the limit, or a lot?

ChristinedePizan · 18/04/2011 20:03

You don't pay tax on funds invested in ISAs - they're reserved for taxpayers. It's really not acceptable for an adult to say they don't really understand the implications. If you want LA then you are entitled to it if you don't have sufficient funds. The funds exist to help people in genuine need to access legal advice that they can't otherwise afford.

You've chosen to put your children's money in your name because it's more beneficial tax-wise. That's great until you decide you want to access state funds. Unfortunately you're not able to, unless as you have acknowledged, you commit fraud. Several posters have explained to you that it's fairly likely that you'll be found out and the penalties for doing so. It's entirely up to you whether or not you try to screw the system but I'd advise you not to (am not a lawyer either but have worked in financial services for about 20 years).

Oh and no, there's isn't a fuck off emoticon. But really, there's no need to throw a total strop because you're being told that what you want to do is totally unethical. It is.

smokinaces · 18/04/2011 20:03

I am a bit confused though as to how you are eligible for legal aid if you dont claim any benefits. Your salary must be pretty high. I am a single mum of 2 children working part time and claiming CTC,WTC and CB and am not entitled to Legal Aid. I was of the impression it is for those on the very lowest income?

Swipe left for the next trending thread