Chances of my brother/parents getting custody of niece?

[auntyimmy]

Hi and I hope someone can help here.

My brother has a daughter who is 8. He split with the mother when she was 2, then she moved away and he hasnt seen her much since. Now this is partly his own stupid fault as he doesnt like committing to things or talking about things so hes never really made proper arrangements. But our parents used to get niece and have her to stay for holidays and then the mother stopped this when my brother moved in with them.

She said my brother cannot look after her on his own as there is rumours about his mental state. Well he has been very depressed missing his children (he has another son who he doesn't get to see as well) and had some trouble a couple of years ago but is getting treatment now and is not a danger to anyone at all. But the mother wants evidence he is ok! Why on earth should he have to provide evidence to her? Parents have told her lots of times that he is fine but she won't beleive it and now we havent had her to stay for three years

The mother has always just said we can visit niece where they live but its a long journey which doesnt seem fair we should have to do all that travelling only for a few hours with her.

Now things are even worse as we have found out she has moved to live at a hippy traveller site and now neice is living in a caravan without proper heating or running water. So parents and brother are thinking about trying for custody and definitely overnight visits as we all miss her so badly and want to see her and spend time with her and its horrible to think of her living somewhere like that.

My brother has his faults and was a bad partner and hasnt really lived up to his responsibilities in the past but with our parents help he would be able to look after her. The mother is very unreasonable, she wont talk to my parents on the phone just shouts at them if they try, says she will only talk to my brother but he doesnt deal well with that sort of thing and finds it stressful talking to her. He loves his daughter so very much and misses her a lot, this has broken his heart that he isnt trusted to have her and that the mother has turned out to be so unfair.

They are going to see a soliciter next week but thought maybe someone here would have some good advice about what the chances are, and what to say.

OP, I'd agree with you that fathers do tend to need to prove themselves more than mothers do when it comes to child residency and contact. I'm a dad and I've got de facto residency of my children courtesy of Social Services but I've had more than a few people qualified comment that the whole process would've likely have been a lot easier if I had been a woman. Life isn't fair.

You want to know how I got residency of my children? By being there for them. By dropping everything else and putting their needs first. By putting myself out, by listening to the opinions of those with experience, by co-operating when that was workable, by compromising where possible and by speaking out when needed.

Your brother could turn this around if he put the effort in. It will take time to build up contact and to regain trust but it's entirely possible. But he's going to have to do a lot, lot more than hiding behind his parents and coming up with mealy-mouthed excuses about how far it is to travel.

Why is he not going all-out to prove to his ex that he is now willing and able to take a stronger role as a father? Even if that means jumping through a few hoops? And why are you just coming up with excuse after excuse about how it's unreasonable to expect him to step up to the plate and behave in a way most fathers desperate for contact would actually behave?

By the way, has he ever tried building a better, or at least civil, relationship with his DD's mother? Other than by passing the phone to his mother?

Maybe when he sends her proof of his stable mental state, he could include a letter thanking her for being there for his child every single day of her life, telling her he appreciates all she's done to make his DD the wonderful person she is?

2 relationships and 2 mothers who are keen that your brother doesn't have any contact with his children. There is more to this than the OP has stated. Shame for grandparents not having contact but they are answerable for the son they have raised.

wow.

cannot believe the sense of entitlement shining through in OP's posts. there is nothing in your posts that make me think your brother is trying at all. he wont make the journey because he wont justify the expense, he wont sit in his daughters house because he feels uncomfortable, he won't prove his mental stability and ability to care for his DD.

sorry, but what exactly is he prepared to do to make sure his DD has a father in her life. because remember this isn't about what he gets out of tehir relationship. this is about what his DD gets out of it. taht's how the courts look at it.

so what if he feels uncomfortable in the house. you do it becaue it is your child, your flesh and blood that you created and are responsible for. i would suffer any torture to keep my children in my life. as a parent that's what you do. you don't say "no, i won't because it's too hard." he doesn't want this for his daughter at all. it sounds like he has got bored with life and found something to occupy his time for a while.

i actually have no worries for this child because i highly doubt your brother has teh gumption to put the positive steps in place in order to maintain a healthy relationship with her. let alone prove a suitable applicant for custody.

I think thats a very unfair statement that Fathers work harder then mothers do for the right to have there children. A lot of people here are speaking from personal experiences. It was your brothers fault for not making enough effort to see his daughter and no one should be making excuses for him. Also if is not well enough to work then that fully explains why the little girls mother would not want to leave her daughter with him. If he cannot work then why should he be entrusted with the life of a child? My ex sounds exactly like your brother and his parents also seem to fit neatly into the story. If he is adult enough to want custody then he should act like an adult and deal speak to the mother of his child himself. From what I have heard it just makes me sad and angry that children have to put up with this crap and mothers get the blame for the fathers short comings.

fwiw.

if the roles were reversed and your brother had raised his DD for the last 6 years alone i think he would be well within his rights to place exactly the same demands on teh mother in order to form a relationship with her DD. this isn't a case of poor fathers having to worrk harder than mothers. this is a case of a parent who couldn't be arsed now having to put a bit of effort in. teh mother has proven herself simply by doing teh job for all these years. if your brother had put the effort in from the start and been a dad he wouldn't have to prove himself now. stop trying to make this into a different issue than what it is, a lazy dad stamping his feet because what he wants isn't falling into his lap.

IME fathers don't have to work harder to prove themselves. My XH and his family are in many ways like OP's family. Although I had never stopped them having contact.

They told the courts I was on strong anti-psychotics, that I was incapable of looking after dd. The courts accepted all this without any supporting evidence because it was lovely that a dad wanted contact with his dd. I am not and never have been on anti-psychotics and dd has been found to be in normal health ranges at every health check. Yet the courts took it as absolute fact just because they said it. They ignored most of my evidence even though I had written proof of mine. As a result I lost the case and have to spend the next 13 years justifying and proving my every action or I will never see dd again. All this and I did nothing wrong, never been found to a be a danger to dd by SS or police etc. So don't you bloody dare tell me fathers have it hard.

"well a ticket there would cost his whole weeks money!" and looking after my children has cost me salary, pension, independence, career and so therefore career progression, my social life, my youth...... !!!!!

From the moment they were born, as a mother right from the get go, everything was sacrificed because their father sacrificed nothing and your brother sounds the same.

He won't spend a few hundred on a round trip ticket. What do you think the 'price' of raising a child is?! It's a LIFE really. And the child's mother is already DOING this.

It's worth it (most of the time) for most mothers. And if the children's fathers helped from the moment the children were born then the pattterns would be set and there wouldn't be resentments and feuds to resolve. but by taking the easy option and taking a step back adn saving his £200 on a round trip, he has created this situation.

good luck to your niece's mtoher. Heaven help her dealing with you lot.

A ticket costs a weeks money - really?! Do you mean a train ticket bought on the spot in the station?

If you book in advance, is it really so much? (I can get to Scotland from the south coast of England for around £40 with some advance planning!) Try www.thetrainline.com and see how much it is if you book a couple of weeks (or more) ahead. I bet it's no where near a weeks money.

What about the coach? Megabus really is only £1 if you book far enough ahead.

You are making excuses for your brother. If my child was taken away from me, even if it cost me a months (or more) to see him, I'd MAKE it happen. That he doesn't speaks volumes I'm afraid.

I know you think I am making excuses but he only gets 65 pound a week and also we do not live on any megabus routes (I just have had a look).

Thing is my brother is very stubborn and the more he is pushed to do a thing one way the more he will resist it and dig in his heels. He has been very close to giving up on seeing his daughter again with all this. He has made up his mind he wants nothng to do with his ex and she has made up hers that she will have nothing to do with any of us except him, so its checkmate and neice is caught in the middle. Its like the mother wishes we would give up and go away if she ignores us and pushes us out for long enough, and how can we give up on a lovely little girl who is part of our family and we all miss so much? Of course she needs her mum. But she needs her dad and grandparents as well.

But I do thank everyone for what they have said as beleive it or not I am reading it and it is making me think hard.

You obviously miss your niece a lot. Don't let that motivation lead you to join in this misguided fight for custody. Contact your dn's mother independently and ask to visit. It sounds like you want to see her more than your brother does to be honest, you're the one looking up ticket prices, what is he doing?

Perhaps it's easier for him to have the excuse that it's too difficult than it is for him to grow up and bd a proper parent to his daughter. You and your parents should be doj g what you can to salvage YOUR relationship with dn.

"He has made up his mind he wants nothng to do with his ex and she has made up hers that she will have nothing to do with any of us except him, so its checkmate and neice is caught in the middle."

The checkmate is down to him though surely! The ex is completely reasonable to discuss access only with him. He needs to step up to the plate. If he can't do that, he probably would be better walking away. I feel very sad for the poor child.

Sounds like he wants you and your parents to sort out HIS problem for him.

Antyyimmy, don't you realise that there is a middle ground between giving up on your niece and gaining custody of her??

Please listen to me because I have been in the shoes of 'the niece's mother'.

From my perspective my x was utterly determined to contribute nothing while I struggled. I had no money either, but because my x was stubborn and "couldn't be pushed" into doing anything he didn't want to do, (sound familiar) then I was left making all the sacrifices of parenthood.

You may not agree, but those who step up and take responsibility are the ones who have rights. Your brother stepped away from responsibility. Excuses, reasons, lack of money, whatever whatever whatever..... the mother was there through thick and thin getting on with it.

You only need to "feel sad for the poor child" if you do anything so patently contrary to her interests such as going to court to try and get custody of her!!!! Which is laughable anyway. Grandparents don't win custody from mothers.

If your brother could re-order his priorities, ie, put seeing his child above his "stubbornness" then your niece would have a mother who has by the sounds of it always been the primary carer, AND she would have a father who was finally realising that a child is not a game that you win and lose. It's not so absolute as that. You make sacrifices, and there will be rewards. If you take on responsibilities willingly without complaint and without turning it in to a power struggle, then 'rights' will follow more naturally.

You are pitying your niece, but it sounds to me like she has a stable home life with her mother. The only blight on the horizon is her deluded paternal family who think they can literally steal the child from her mother because they want her

You talk about feeling sad for the "poor child". You have not got a clue. I'm sure the child's mtoher pities you. She knows that her ex's family delude themselves into thinking that it's all her fault they have been denied a normal relationship with their granddaughter/niece. But that is not the reason at all. The child's father has met NONE of his responsibilities, and yet his parents are trying to swing their rights around!!

In years to come (no idea what age you are or how close this is) when you have your own child and have had that child inside you for 9 months, delivered him/her, breastfed him/her, got up in the night, and so on and so on and so on then you will shudder with shame that you actually were on the point of colluding with your parents to try and win custody of this child.

"Thing is my brother is very stubborn and the more he is pushed to do a thing one way the more he will resist it and dig in his heels. He has been very close to giving up on seeing his daughter again with all this."

For fuck's sake! How old is your brother? Twelve? What a selfish, immature brat he is.

But, hey, it's ok isn't it because he's got his family to fight his battles and to pull him out of the hole he's dug for himself. He just needs to have a sulk and a strop and you all come running round to do all the work for him.

Trust me, I'm a very strong advocate of fathers maintaining contact with their children wherever possible. But until your brother can get his priorities straight and to put his children first I genuinely hope he has as little contact with his kids as feasible. The man's a cock of the highest order and no child deserves to be exposed to that.

Hear, hear Snorbs!

"He has been very close to giving up on seeing his daughter again with all this."

with all what??? there has been nothing i read in your posts that has made things too difficult for him to see his DD. the only thing that is stopping him is his own sense of entitlement and expecting it all to happen just because he wants it to. he doesn't seem to realise that being a parent is hard work and that requires scarifice. does he honestly expect the girl's mother to put her on a train every week so he doesn't have to get off his arse?

booyhoo, possibly yes he does expect this!!

This thread has been a reminder of how my x's family view me. I have never, ever prevented them from coming to visit and yet they blame me for everything. It beggars belief but it's a common story ....

I make myself totally absent when my x comes, so it's not as though they have to deal with me. I know this is just my experience, but I know this type, and I think they do expect you to facilitate them!! They don't quite see it like that though. They are hyper aware of any tiny sacrifice they make themselves whilst simultaneously taking all of the mother's sacrifices for parenthood completely and utterly for granted.

A lot of absentee fathers cut from cloth with this pattern

If the mother was vindictive and nasty, from your op, it sounds like she could quite easily manipulate this situation for it to be that you all lose contact.
All it would take is for her to stop phoning, change numbers and move.
But, guess what she hasn't done that has she?

Do you really, honestly think that the mother is being unreasonable?

What would you expect her to do? what if you could make it so, would you like to happen, with regards to her actions?

Seriously? i can not see what the mother has ddone or is doing that is soooooo bloody terrible that your darling brother can not be an adult and speak to her about arrangements to see HIS daughter.

and on the money issue, how much is a return ticket?
why can he not save up weekly and go once a month?
Why won't his mum and dad lend him some to help the situation instead of being a pair of dickheads and demanding custody?

I wouldn't feel sorry for your niece btw, tbh she probably is better off in the long term without your brother around to fuck her up completely, if she ever meets him later on she will probably come to that conclusion by herself.

valium my ex and his family are exactly the same.

when i had ds1 i had to bring him to tehir house at 6 days old so all their family and friends could see him. and when he was a few weeks old i saw them out in a shop and tehy chewed the face of me for not bringing him to their house every time i left the house!!

OP - if you ever have a son one day, please make it your priority to raise him to be a wonderful husband and a wonderful father.

Fathers show commitment, love, and care for their child. And make sacrifices.

And never let "stubbornness" get in the way.

sleepycat - me too!

Your brother sounds pathetic. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

If I was separated from my DC's I would walk through the night to see them. I would fill in forms a million times over. I would visit mediation sessions. I would see doctors and provide medical reports. I would starve for a week to scrape the money together so that I could travel.

I would do absolutely everything I possibly could to ensure that I could spend even a minute with them. This is normal. This is what loving caring parents do.