Chances of my brother/parents getting custody of niece?

[auntyimmy]

Hi and I hope someone can help here.

My brother has a daughter who is 8. He split with the mother when she was 2, then she moved away and he hasnt seen her much since. Now this is partly his own stupid fault as he doesnt like committing to things or talking about things so hes never really made proper arrangements. But our parents used to get niece and have her to stay for holidays and then the mother stopped this when my brother moved in with them.

She said my brother cannot look after her on his own as there is rumours about his mental state. Well he has been very depressed missing his children (he has another son who he doesn't get to see as well) and had some trouble a couple of years ago but is getting treatment now and is not a danger to anyone at all. But the mother wants evidence he is ok! Why on earth should he have to provide evidence to her? Parents have told her lots of times that he is fine but she won't beleive it and now we havent had her to stay for three years

The mother has always just said we can visit niece where they live but its a long journey which doesnt seem fair we should have to do all that travelling only for a few hours with her.

Now things are even worse as we have found out she has moved to live at a hippy traveller site and now neice is living in a caravan without proper heating or running water. So parents and brother are thinking about trying for custody and definitely overnight visits as we all miss her so badly and want to see her and spend time with her and its horrible to think of her living somewhere like that.

My brother has his faults and was a bad partner and hasnt really lived up to his responsibilities in the past but with our parents help he would be able to look after her. The mother is very unreasonable, she wont talk to my parents on the phone just shouts at them if they try, says she will only talk to my brother but he doesnt deal well with that sort of thing and finds it stressful talking to her. He loves his daughter so very much and misses her a lot, this has broken his heart that he isnt trusted to have her and that the mother has turned out to be so unfair.

They are going to see a soliciter next week but thought maybe someone here would have some good advice about what the chances are, and what to say.

And of course my parents want to see her too and are trying their best to help my brother - she is their first grandchld and they adore her. They miss her terribley

auntyimmy - phone calls and a couple of visits to her home every year don't make a good argument for custody, I'm afraid. Which was your original question. It's completely unreasonable to suggest taking a little girl away from her sole carer on those grounds.

Your brother needs to make much more of an effort to build a relationship with this child so access can be gradually increased.

You seem to be missing the point. The courts will not change the status quo unless there is a serious problem, and usually by this stage, social services will be involved.

The mother is absolutely right to ask for evidence of your DB's mental health since he has been mentally unwell.

Of course the mother wants contact on her terms. This is absolutely reasonable given that she is effectively a lone parent, your brother isn't really a part of your niece's life, and can't be asked to travel to see her.

They sound as if they're doing fine and don't understand why you would want to interfere with this.

You say in your OP that she has not been to stay with your parents for 3 years.

How often do you r parent and brother go to visit?

Your brother's ex clearly has a problem with leaving her daughter in his care - why is this, is it just the mental health issue and can't he prove that he has got help for his problems?

I wouldn't think twice about travelling 300 miles to see my child! I would wish it was otherwise but that wouldn't stop me making the journey.

You're not helping your brother. You should be encouraging him to build a relationship with his daughter by visiting her, not starting a battle for custody which he is sure to loose and could well make a bad situation worse.

Children who are insecure about their parentage and heritage tend to grow up with low self esteem leading to emotional and behavioural problems in later life such as dysfunctional relationships in adulthood. Therefore courts presume that when a child lives with one parent they have the right to know and see the other parent and his/her extended family in all but the most exceptional circumstances. That applies even when there has been no contact for sometime.

Residence is a different issue. The courts are reluctant to disrupt a child's sense of security by changing the existing bonds unless a child isn't surviving satisfactorily. Good enough parenting is when any strengths (including any measures that can be put into place) balance against any risk.

The courts are well used to hostility towards contact and separated parents making allegations against each other, but unless there is independent evidence (police, social work, school, medical reports) that a child is seriously harmed or at risk from harm a judge will have difficulty choosing between different versions of the "truth." The label of a mental illness or a history of alcohol or drug abuse isn't a bar to contact, what matters it is present behaviour and if necessary what measures can be put in place to ensure contact is safe.

Your brother and parents will possibly need to re-establish contact slowly meeting the child for short periods and then committing to gradually extending to half a day, a full day, overnight and eventually full weekends and holidays. When distance makes every other weekend unworkable it's possible to have a long weekend every six weeks or so during school half terms and holidays.

It isn't unreasonable for separated parents to share travel and depending on the court this might be expected. Other times there is an expectation that a parent with the minority of care does the bulk of the traveling because they can apply to pay less child support to help with travel or accommodation expenses related to contact, the parent with care may have a new baby making travel difficult or if resources are scarce the costs of travel may not be seen as being in the best interests of the child ((children of separated families often don't do well because there isn't enough money). Each case is treated separately so it depends upon the specific circumstances and there tends to be differences in the way local courts and individual judges view matters.

Why is paying child maintenance relevant, Dittany?

The child maintenance is relevant as the OP is saying that the niece doesn't have access to heating/running water - as though that is a fault of the mother. The father surely has an obligation to provide for these for his daughter too. He's perhaps not meeting his obligations to his daughter himself (but the OP hasn't said yet).

Maintenance is relevant whatever the dd's living standards. Any decent parent who cares about their child will support that child financially as well as in every other way. A parent who does not is a bad parent. (Even people on benefits have to pay a token amount on CSA reckonings, IIRC.)

That's true, of course maintenance is relevant whatever the living standards.

He does pay an amount from his benefits (which he gets as he is not well enough to work any more.)

We are all involved as she is part of our family and so is my brother and we all want to see her. He just is not very good at dealing with things, its how he is. Doesnt make him a completely bad father or a danger to his daughter or mean that we should all be denied any chance of a proper relationshp with her.

My brother doesnt feel comfortable visiting her at home, her mother has a new partner and two younger children and he feels unwelcome there. It not easy to try and spend quality time with your child when you are being kept an eye on at all times.

Is it your mum and dad who are driving this more than your brother? So far from what you have said he seems to have every excuse not to visit her often so it sounds like your parents are the driving force behind seeking custody or overnight visits.

To answer your OP there is very little chance of your parents getting either.

Disagree that maintenance is an indication of commitment to the well being of a child. There are some very rich fathers who pay maintenance yet don't have a very strong relationship or bond with their child(ren).

OP, you need to realize how upsetting it will be, if you decide to go ahead with challenging a residence order. Presumably your DB will be assisted by legal aid, and if so, will have to agree to mediation as the first step in order to try and resolve any issues amicably and informally.

Paying maintenance or not paying maintenance is also relevant because it shows whether the attitude is one prepared to make sacrifices or not, or an attitude of trying to wriggle out of responsibility but to damand one's rights. You can file my x in that column. I know the type. So whether or not he's paying maintenance tells a story.

They went to mediation before and my brother said the mediater just took ex's side the way through it all. Cant imagine he will be in a hurry to go again as he thought it was a waste of time.

A proper realationship means looking after her, doing things of your own choice with her, putting her to bed, reading her stories, having uninterupted time wth her for more than 3/4 hours, in his own home not in someone elses home or a park or pub! Not being watched all the time and having the clock ticking and dreading the moment when he has to say goodbye and she cries

The mother gets to call all the shots in my brothers eye, noone asks her to prove SHE is safe to look after her own child, or that she can provide a safe home. But she can demand all this of my brother and then he has to challenge it and not see his daughter on her say so. Seems very unfair.

So is he paying maintenance or not?!

Your brother didn't visit his dd in years, and you do acknowledge that that was his decision.

So, what sacrifices has your brother made for parenthood? or is the child's mother expected to make all the sacrifices of parenthood?? She has made all the sacrifices up to date, and is now expected to hand over her child because..... it's what the child's paternal grandparents want!!

If I hadn't been through something horribly similar I would expect this was a wind up.

At the moment my x is angry because I am 'preventing' my 7 yo from writing to him. She's 7 ffs. And anyway, he's 41, who is preventing him from paying maintenance?!?!

But in his family's 'narrative' if that's the right word, it is all my fault. I am bad, lazy, obstructive, unhinged, and on benefits.

I knwo the cut of your brother's gip.

Have to agree with everyone else I'm afraid. Your brother sounds like a right knobend, and no court in its right mind would give custody to him.
He does have to prove himself, after 6 years of being a complete cock. And you are your parents are colluding in such nonsensical ideas.
So - he's mentally not quite right, on benefits, and can't speak to his ex-p on the phone without getting up a height?
What a tit.

Why should the mother have to prove anything? She has been taking care of her dd on her own for 6 years. She didn't have the option of being "young and irresponsible" did she?

She has been there for her dd, to feed her, clothe her, love her, cuddle her when she's ill and be a Mummy.

Your brother on the other hand, not only swanned off to live his life commitment-free but has also managed to be a deadbeat Dad to another poor child. Parenthood doensn't work like that. You can't shimmy in and out of a child's life when it suits you. Children need stability and consistency and her mother has provided that.

And it sounds to me as if your brother is only trying to get involved now because your parents want to see their dgd. Maybe if they had done a better job of bringing up your brother, they wouldn't have found themselves in this position.

'she is their first grandchld and they adore her.'

Do you mean their first grandaughter?
You said your brother already had a son, what sort of close and loving relationship does he have with his firstborn?
His mental health is not the stuff of rumours, he is depressed, on medication and unable to work because of his mental health condition.
She has proved her fitness as a parent by caring for her child for years.
The fact that they are observant of your brother when he's with her shows that they care about her welfare and safety.
He is the one who has to establish a relationship with both of his children if he is going to be a father, he isn't entitled to anything without making up the ground he couldn't be bothered to keep.

How selfish your brother sounds, and you/your parents for encouraging the attitude! Your niece's mother does far and away more than her share of bringing up your niece, both physically, emotionally and financially (not saying it's your brother's choice or fault he can't pay much maintenance but it's still the way the situation is), keeps your niece safe, well and happy (presumably, living somewhere without running water/central heating does not necessarily say she isn't) and somehow that's not fair on your brother?

If I was him I'd be thanking my lucky stars someone was around to look after my child (even when it's their child too) when I couldn't/wouldn't and wasting as much time/money as I had to spare trying to increase my relationship with that child under whatever circumstances their main carer saw fit rather than feeling sorry for myself that life wasn't exactly the way I wanted it!