Babies in the waiting area...

[meadowlark3]

What do you think about babies in the waiting area of your clinic? A couple came to our clinic and brought their small toddler (perhaps 18 months) and the baby played and babbled in the main waiting area. It seemed to make lots of other patients quite uncomfortable.

It surprised me to see a small child running about and wondering what others think.

xx

Big I also had a miscarriage and then 5 years of infertility. I was infertile. I have never seen it referred as secondary infertility.

This is totally dependent on what side of the treatment you are.

I would agree it's insensitive about seven years ago. It was a massive struggle to get DD1, broke my heart seeing babies everywhere, being constantly asked if we wanted children and invited to attend christenings. At the time it felt like it'd never end.

It did. Eventually. We got our beautiful daughter.

But then we threw ourselves back into the same rat race only this time for a sibling.

Note to all those still on Stage 1, Stage 2 is just as hard and just as soul destroying, yes you feel totally grateful everyday for DC1 but if, before being told you're infertile, you had pictured having a large family then you will most likely still have that in your mind (however hard the 1st one was).

You don't know how long the couple opposite you with the child had tried for them, how many failed attempts it took them and how much heart ache they've been through. Chances are it's pretty similar.
Not everyone has on demand childcare.

Secondary infertility is when you already have a child

I would agree they are probably a product of fertility treatment already. We were able to start treatment for no2 as soon as possible due to our struggle for DD1, most people have to wait at least a couple of years for treatment of secondary infertility.

1big I don't think anyone's doubting your experience. Technically my medical notes said I had secondary infertility after my stillbirth. But that's not how I'd identify my experience for clarity of communication outside of a clinical context (it also confused the shit out of clinicians, who always asked grinningly who was looking after my toddler during appointments, and then I'd have to tell them I didn't have a toddler, I only had a dead baby). I think most people on here, when comparing primary to secondary infertility, are colloquially understanding 'secondary infertility' to mean 'the experience of infertility when you've already got one or more living biological child'.

There is a big difference between having a child and not having a child. It's unhelpful and disingenuous to suggest these aren't significantly different states of being (in terms of relationships, daily life, preoccupations, interactions with the wider world, etc), and I think that's one of the things that grates a bit when parents ttc number 2 (or more) equate their experience to mine. You also often get a lot of thoughtless comments along the lines of 'lucky you - you get a lie-in every weekend if you want it!' 'Ooh, wish I had the time for that, but no! Off to another toddler group! God I'm exhausted! Can't believe I'm trying to have another one!' Which can just be incredibly hard to be sympathetic about when you're in the throes of miscarriage number 6 and hurtling towards middle age with no prospect of a family on the horizon.

More empathy is needed, yes - but also an acknowledgement that some of our experiences will be sufficiently different to make empathy difficult, and it might be really helpful for there to be some more specific areas for people to talk about the particular challenges of infertility when you already have a child or children.

GuinessPunch ok. Delighted for you. Your point is what exactly?

Maybe the consultant at Guy's who approved the letter that was sent to me doesn't know their job. Maybe the consultant at the private clinic where I ended up doesn't either. Maybe the definitions have changed in the 7 years since I was sent that letter.

None of that makes what I was told any less true.

Gaggle, that's not true. Not if the parents struggled first time round.

Sorry gaggle, read your second post and now unsure if you were disagreeing with me or not.

I completely understand that for the purpose of this thread people are understanding secondary to mean those who already have a child. I think I'm just feeling slightly defensive towards the term as it's being used so negatively in some instances.

You'd think the clinics themselves would recognise that a)many, many people attending infertility services are likely to find it deeply distressing to share the waiting room with babies and children and that b)some people attending will have no option but to bring babies and children with them, and offer two waiting rooms, one of which should be strictly child free.

Bloody hell, now on to another fight! Rotten to the core this thread

The bickering over which type of infertility is which only goes to show how unhelpful the terms can be.

Not a fight blinkyblink, a difference of opinion. It's your goady comments that helped turned this thread into what it has become in the first place, so if it's rotten, it's down to you!

I've read the entire (!) thread - took me ages!!!

We now have a DC, born after 8 years of fertility treatment and what felt, at the time, like every type of medical intervention known to man. I have sat in, quite literally, dozens of waiting rooms waiting for appointments and in some of them, yes, there were children and babies. It hurt, badly, every single time. Personally I felt so isolated from the world, vulnerable and in pain that it felt like rubbing salt into a very, very open wound. Did it ever occur to me that people had trouble in getting childcare? No, honestly, it never did. It just hurt.

I can't go through fertility treatment again. DC arrived on our final go and I can't face it again. Ever. But I wouldn't take them to a fertility clinic because of how I felt when I was on the fertility treadmill. I understand now about the problems of childcare, but personally I wouldn't do it.

Sending huge hugs to those who are still on that treadmill.

ahamsternest when I read the first sentence of your post, I thought what can she know about this. I'm sorry for judging you so wrongly. As it turns out, you have shown far more empathy, kindness and understanding towards people with infertility than many of the posters here who've apparently been through fertility treatment themselves.

The lack of empathy and sensitivity displayed by some of the other posters on this thread is breathtaking.

Similarly, when we were doing our adoption course, there were families there that already had children. Birth and adopted.

Tbh, I wished they weren't there, I wished there was a different course for them. As when you are in those early stages of adoption there is still no guarantee that you will ever become a family. The experiences and conversations from those that were already parents was like being kicked in the stomach at times.

I guess that financially the local authorities can't afford to run a separate course, but it would certainly have helped us to relax more; without having to hear about "josh and Arrabella" every five minutes.

Being childless, not by choice, is a massively lonely and painful state. I think this thread makes it obvious that if you haven't experienced it, you could never imagine what that is like.

bitch I think it's clear that even if one has experienced primary infertility and the very real fear of never becoming a mother that comes with involuntary childlessness, that even if one does eventually succeed and has a child, that the experience of then trying for a second child is necessarily a very different experience to going through it the first time

I can't pretend to understand what the experience is like as I assume I will never get there. I can't have a baby, so I have the assumption that I'm sure many infertile women share - that if I can't have one child, it's a complete pipe dream to think I would ever be able to have more than one.

I can't understand secondary infertility but it is evident that it is a very different experience

It's why there tend to be separate threads for those of us with multiple failures and facing the prospect of a childless future, vs those for those experiencing secondary infertility. As both emotionally and practically (as we have seen from the childcare issues raised on this thread) the experiences are fundamentally different.

It's why on the multiple failures thread it's been very much clear that it's for primary infertility only, as the pain of facing never having a child is different to the pain of only having one child. Not playing top trumps about my pain is worse than your pain. But they are undeniably different experiences. And when facing a childless future, many of us need support from others in a similar boat.

Primary infertility = grief and grieving
Secondary infertility = grief and grieving - different issues = support groups run separately because issues can be the same re treatment etc but also different re sibling issues etc. Some people can cope with talking to women experiencing secondary infertility because it gives them hope others find it unbearable = differences are o.k but will keep groups running separately, occasionally bringing two groups together but both groups are forewarned - this is courteous and fair.
Children are a physical reminder of what we are living without = sensitivity required = better childcare/crèche facilities for women experiencing secondary IF so they don't feel forced into taking children into sensitive situations (to both parties)
Also better facilities required for women having suffered the trauma and devastation of mc. Hospitals are rubbish at this and expect you to rub shoulders with pregnant women during follow up appointments etc. - excuse me no...because my head and my heart are screaming with pain and I don't want to be reminded of what could have been.
Less ignorance required = more education and understanding required.
Infertility and loss is shit = let's not battle between ourselves - there is a whole lot of emotions simmering here and there needs to be understanding and acceptance that people deal with grief differently let's stay united.

Thanks Earl, I'm sorry for what everyone is going through on these board.

^^ Wise words from someone who does amazing work running support groups for people experiencing infertility in all its different forms.

I'm so glad I've read this thread. My sister is going through secondary infertility. She has an 8 yo dd conceived naturally but is now having fertility treatment after trying for no 2 for 6 years.
She'd asked me to go along with her to the clinic for support as her dh is in the forces and stationed in the Falklands, and I'd agreed but have now decided not to go as I'm 31 weeks pregnant and, in all honesty, it didn't even enter my mind that my being there could upset anyone.

I think infertility, of any class, is such a horrible and personal experience, that you sometimes forget to lack the capacity to be empathetic towards other, even if they're going through the same thing. I know it has consumed my sister for the past few years.

As an outsider, My heart breaks for all of you.

No, I won't piss off, Icy.

Who are any of you to tell anyone who is struggling secondary infertility that it isn't that hard? How dare any of you dismiss zoe's painful experience like that? She said it was worse FOR HER, she wasn't taking anything away from any of you, yet several of dare to tell her that HER feelings about HER struggle aren't valid!

That is my objection. Her fight isn't as hard as yours, because she has a child. Not your call to make.

Someone said on previous page that we all have different experiences and are at different points in the "journey".

I had secondary infertility. I can honestly say that I was a madwoman. I have never recovered. I still feel irrationally angry when I see pregnant women (even though the opportunity to board that ship has long since sailed for me!) and as for large families... It is true that when you hope to have a family you have some sort of "end result" in view and you then have to adjust that view, whilst batting off all sorts of hurtful comments ranging from "selfish one-child families" to "oh, I just looked at dh and got pregnant" and "I'm run ragged" crap.

I attended a fertility clinic with ds in tow on one occasion. At the time I was only focused on meeeeee and didn't spare a thought for anyone else. However, I clearly remember feeling bad in the waiting room and I would have never have done some performance parenting involving reading books loudly and beaming at everyone ostentatiously.

Good point from someone that secondary infertiles get a bad deal as I saw those who had had primary infertility shoot past me and one woman ended up with four dcs (and she is the bloody smuggest person on this earth).

Bitchfromhell I can see that sessions for people considering adoption must raise similar issues, and that it'd be good for service providers to acknowledge and consider peoples understandable feelings in how they manage things, within the available resources.

Many people with secondary infertility have experienced primary infertility too, perhaps even for many years, and then (luckily) had DC. Those people have been where others still are.

Friends tried to have DC for over twelve years, before very luckily having 2DC. They have had further help but have not, however, been able to have DC3 (yet).

I think your right Dozer in that there are massive ranges of experience in those who have secondary infertility. Having also struggled the first time round I don't feel aligned to either those who conceived easily the first time but also am clearly no longer in the BA group who are going through the agony of not knowing or being guaranteed a good outcome.
I find the arguing and vicious comments on this thread really upsetting - what happened to trying to understand that we aren't all the same but it's pretty much guaranteed none of us wanted to be here and anything any of us can do to help another out really shouldn't be too much to ask?