Social workers are under direct financial and career pressure to take children away from their parents - today's Mail

[edam]

Anyone who has followed Bunglie's saga will know how frightening social services practise towards some parents can be. Hopefully not in every case, but the attitude of professionals towards mothers accused of harming their children left/leaves a lot to be desired in terms of objectivity and evidence-gathering.

Today's Mail takes this onto new ground. I'd already heard from my sister, who works in this field, examples of parents with learning difficulties being treated as 'guilty until proved innocent' in terms of their capacity to look after their own children.

In p. 8 & 9 today's Mail carries a story on social workers removing children from people with learning difficulties. They include an opinion piece by Prof Tim Booth, prof social policy at Sheffield who has some interesting things to say about discrimination by soc. services: '[this is] a form of abuse by the system whereby people are made worse off by the services that are supposed to help them. It is rampant, pervasive and destructive of family life, and far more prevalent than ... child abuse. ...system abuse, more than child abuse, is the precipitating factor behind the high rates of child removal.'

Together with the Government's policy to 'encourage' all mothers of young children back to work whether they want to or not, and proposals for massive database storing information about all our children (and sparking social services investigations if two 'red flags' are raised - like a health visitor saying a baby is 'not gaining enough weight' and a later trip to A&E because the same child falls out of a tree), I'm very worried. It seems the Government is, whether deliberately or not, undermining the private sphere of family life and turning itself into the childcatcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

What do you think?

Not really- global developmental delay is used when there is a delay in all areas of development. Sometimes as the child grows the diagnosis is changed to something more specific. Dyspraxia is a problem with movement (athough there can be more to it than that iyswim).

Expatinscotland-How old is your dd?Do you recieve support from your hv?My ds has just turned 4 so for awhile we just thought his speech was delayed and he was being lazy i tend to be guilty of knowing what he wants before i give him the chance to ask.
His motor skills seem fine as far as holding a pencil and eating are concerned although he was late in pedalling a bike and catching a ball.

If you don't mind me asking did you recieve support in dealing with your PND?

Thanks jimjams-I will have do some reading up on the subject.Although he has'nt been diagnosed with dyspraxia the speech therapist keeps mentioning this and until we can get an appointment with a speciallist it is still very unclear.

My daughter is 26 months old now. She is finally walking! Woohoo! She goes to physio and it's helped a lot. DH and I work with her as much as possible.

It was our GP who referred her. Luckily, we have a really proactive GP who works primarily with children. She started checking up on DD as soon as she had that 8 month checkup and was completely unable to hold her own weight up.

I was treated for PND with drugs over the course of 18 months w/ADs, anti-anxiety drugs, sleeping tablets - not all at once, of course. I also got a lot of help from The Post Natal Depression Project at Wallace House in Edinburgh, a charity run by the Church of Scotland. The house is available for mums and babes w/PND. They have coffee mornings, drop in days where lovely volunteers will look after your baby whilst you have a cuppa and talk w/others mums, watch TV, etc.

Even w/help, I still have a hard time remembering a lot of DD's first year, which is very sad.

I was gradually weaned off drugs and cannot believe I once felt so hopeless and suicidal. I honestly believed my daughter and husband would be better off w/o me around.

I never once felt like harming my baby. It was more like, I just wanted to die b/c I thought I was a bad mother.

I understand how debilitating the anxiety can be. Mine bordered on paranoia and was completely beyond my control. I'm VERY, VERY good at hiding my emotions outwardly, but those feelings I will remember forever. They will haunt me forever. I read books like 'Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde' and I can almost feel what Robert Louis Stevenson, who suffered from panic attacks, felt. I can read the 'The Bell Jar' and really know what she meant. It's like a ghost that shadows a person - no one else can see it.

I felt even worse b/c I waited years to have a baby and gave up all life as I knew it for the dream of having a family. This added to my intense feelings of guilt.

It's an awful disease I wouldn't wish on anyone, but to add the threat of taking away is beyond tragic.

Expatinscotland-so pleased things are going well for your dd now.

I was prescribed anti anxiety drugs which i have'nt taken as not sure i want to .Was on anti d's previously and made me feel so numb.
I feel exactly the same as you did ,I never feel like harming my children just feel like a bad mother and sometimes I feel i can't do anything right.My dh and his family always criticize me which does'nt help and when the hv reinforced this as well i felt like everyone was out to get me.
I have a great occupational therapist who believes in me and is working with me to build up my self esteem again.

It gives me hope to know you have come through PND and maybe I can see a light at the end of a very dark tunnel.

I can't stress enough that there IS light at the end of the tunnel! I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me a year and a half ago, though. Have you read 'Down Came the Rain' by Brooke Shields? Brooke suffered severe PND as well, and came out in the open about it, and how badly she felt for feeling depressed after having to undergo IVF to have her child.

My DH and family were EXTREMELY supportive. It made the world of difference, so did the counselling and volunteers at The Wallace House.

I KNEW there was something wrong w/me. I KNEW it wasn't right to feel the way I did. But I couldn't stop it.

Zoloft worked best for me. I tried 3 different ADs before finding one that worked w/o my feeling someone else was in my body.

It is horrid to have to fight for your rights at a time when you are least capable of fighting.

Expatinscotland-have just read your other post and you explain it so well.I find it difficult to put into words.
I feel parinoid a lot of the time and have really bad guilt trips that I am not a good mother and it breaks my heart.I think my children deserve better.I look at them and sometimes think i can't believe they are mine they are so wonderful.

I just feel so angry about this referral now and i passionetly believe it should never have happened.My dh does'nt understand this and has never understood my pnd.So mch so that he admitted tonight he thinks the hv had a point in referring the children because of my mental state.
All I am guilty of is loving my children too much and overly protecting them.I never got to say goodbye tio ethier of my parents when they died and i just get so anxious when my children are away from me in case i never see them again.I have been told ths is not normal and i have to stop wrapping them in cotton wool.I just can't help the way i feel.

I can't believe my dh said this to me and am now thinking how can i stay married to someone who thinks that of me.

tatler - thanks for kind comments. YEs there is a light at end of tunnel. Exp similar to what expat has described in terms of feeling like a bad mother. I attempted od although it was so surreal it was scary. I always thought before becoming ill that with pnd mums didnt want to know their babies which i of course found out was not the case. But because i had such a distorted view i didnt seek help. I was a very anxious mum who wanted everything 'perfect' for ds to the extent i wasnt eating or sleeping. I was very frightened as well of something bad happening ot ds - like dunblane which of course is irrational but i couldnt get such horrible things out of my head and would be so distressed in case anything bad ever happened to ds.

Feel a bit less stressed about phone call to solicitor earlier and will follow advice of just leaving legalising it all for a while till said person has left country. Kind of speaks volumes that this was what was adviced. This person was not impartial or particulary professional imo and the fact that she didnt bother to turn up to alot of prev court hearing and judge was quite frustrated with said person too makes me wonder how they have such power. I do think tho she was unfairly influenced by sw who was initially involved. I just remembered another one of the issues she had with me was the fact that i gave her a horrible look! tbh i dont remember but i dont expect any mum would be all smile when her baby had been taken. I have had a lot of conselling to help me deal with alot of things but i am thinking one day i may put pen to paper and vent the emotions i have for missing so many precious moments. I am so so glad he is back with me and he knows he is very loved.

tatler - just read your comments re being guilty of loving children too much. Totally understand that statement. A comment made to me was that they had never come across someone who fouhgt so hard for thier children!! I couldnt imagine not fighting with all you have.

A big lesson i learnt tho was that I couldnt do it all all of the time iykwim and that i needed to find an interest for me too. Does that make any sense?

My niece and sister are very supportive but I only tell them half the story most of the time.
The rest of the time i put on a brave face and cry in secret.My dh trys to be supportive but he just keeps saying your therapist can't be doing her job you have'nt improved at all in a year.
My mil when we do see her maybe twice a year just dismisses it and she told me she just thinks that i am strange.She says i could'nt be depressed as i would't be able to function.Most days i have to really force myself to function and of course i do this fot my childrens sake when all i want to do sometimes is hide away from everyone.

My dh just says i have had all the support i am going to get and to sort my shit out as i am affecting the children.He says i am the one with the problem.When i tell him he has to take some responsibility for supporting me and his putting me down does'nt help he says i am deflecting from the issue and trying to balme someone else.

Sorry to rant,it's just i ahve had a really streesful few months and for dh to come out with all the stuff over the last couple of days has left me numb and io don't know what to do.
I don't really have anyone to talk to.
My niece is visiting tomorrow and i will have to put on a brave face again and try and hide how i am feeling.I don't think i can do it for much longer though.
I used to confide in my therapist but am afraid to do so now in case she tells hv and they ythink i am not coping and refer me again.

AWen -totally agree you need some time for yourself.
My therapist is always saying whatever she talks to me about i always bring the children up in the conversation and she feels i need to do something for myself as a person.

I too feel i want everything to be perfect for my children,but i know it can't always be that way.I am just setting myself to fail putting that kind of pressure on myself.

Oh Tatler - I really empathise. You do sound like you are going through the mill at the moment.

It is important to be able to speak to your therapist (what type of therapy?) She should not break your confidences unless she thought you or someone else were in danger.

Is your husband getting any support from anywhere either? Could he be taking frustrations out on you because he isnt getting support elsewhere iykwim?

The mil thing - she is from another generation - my exp mil was no help when i was unwell (actually dont get on full stop)

Is there anyway you and hubby could have a mini break together just the two of you for some 'grown up time' too?

Sorry if this is overloading you - so want to help.

Also have you any interests? Art, books, cross stitch, puzzles etc because some energy into an interest(although at first it may seem impossible) may help you find more of you again

Whereabouts are you from? I feel like i really indentify with where you are and believe me this is only temporary.

hugsxx

Thanks awen .My therapist deals in cognitive behaviour and helps me with my anxiety.
My dh tends to go to the pub most evenings after work to let off steam and relax but of course this just makes me more anxious as i never know when he will be in or how drunk he is.This is when the nasty comments come out.I think he talks to friends he has in the pub but not sure to what degree.

I have'nt been away from the children since they wetre born and it's always me and them 24/7 with no family help.When we do stay at mil's i just do the same job i would do at home she offers no support at all.Getting away for a break without the children would be impossible.

I do like to read and surf on the net also once everyones in bed i like to listen to music.
I live in Norfolk and my therapist is looking into PND groups for me locally.

PND groups can be good Mine was

When you said about it being you and kids 24/7 reminded me of when ds was baby and I would let exp get that involved and he didnt seem to want to iykwim i think it was a bit of a vicous cirlce cos he would do it wrong and i would tell him and he wouldnt want to etc. I also hate leaving ds in other peoples care although it was forced on me for years.

You mentioned your sisters supportive is there any chance she could babysit even for a night?

If husband is speaking to people at pub chances are they dont fuly understand and are just hearing him sound off or may not fully understand situation.

Suggest instead of him off to pub you have romantic meal at home and then plan for a special night out.

Do you mind me asking but you said that you stay up listening to music when everyone in bed. Is that to get some relax time? Do you stay up later a lot? Reason i ask is if never going ot bed at same time with hubby it could make things more difficulgt. Really sorry if out of line here.

Awen-I do tend to stay up most nights after midnight as i find i really need that time to be by myself and relax.
Dh tends to sleep in the spare room a lot as ds comes into our bed more often than not.
Dh complains about me styaing up so late as he feels how can i look after the children properly if i am feeling tired,but i manage it.I just resent the fact that he goes to the pub for his relaxation and i need sometime to myself as well to unwind and night time is the only time i get that.

My sister works full time and goes away a lot at weekends and has grand chidren of her own so always feel she is really busy and not sure how the children wuld be as they have never been away from me .

I mentioned divorce to my dh tonight as i feel things he has said i can't forgive and that his drinking is becoming all to frequent.Could he cut down and come home straight from work more often to take some of the pressure off me at the moment.
His response was for me to go on the net and orgainise it and he would rather see the children once a week without me being there.

What am I meant to make of that?
It was like he was saying cuting out the visits to the pub was'nt a option.

Tatler - sounds like there are lots of things going on for you.

How old are the children btw? I know if probably turns your stomach to think of leaving them but they will be fine, trust me on that.

Re dh sleeping in other room, do understand and ds used to sleep in with me and still does sometimes although of late had to put foot down as my bf suggested seperate rooms.

Have you 'asked' any family for help in terms of having the children for a short amount of time? Even if you go out for an hour and increase it gradually.

It doesnt sound liek dh has done much 'parenting' of children although i may be completely wrong. They need their dad too and perhaps time together as a family too. I know it is hard sometimes to take a step back, i really really do but as hard as it may feel by allowing him in a bit more could enhance the situation.

You are more than a mum and a wife. Just from chatting to you on here i sense you are a good sister and friend and I expect a very resourceful intelligent woman. x

hope this makes sense x

I think you therapist is right re time for you. You need to find yourself again - not you as a mum or wife but you as you.

AWen that's exactly what the therapist says.I don't really know who i am anymore.My dh sees me as ds and dd mother and i should be that 24/7 and am made to feel guilty if i want to do something for myself.
Dh is very good with the children at weekends and they follow him around especially ds .Ds is probably bored with mummy by the end of the week.
Ds is just 4 and dd is 2.3

I used to be a retail manager with 18 staff.Can't believe I was once that person .So orgainised,managed targets ,interviewed people etc.
Seems like another person.
I even believe it or not trained for the samaritans and did some work for them for awhile.Then my mum died and i could'nt manage to do it anymore.

Dh described me the other night as the ex manager who has lost her marbles!!!
With comments like that how can i respect him ever again?

You are still the person you were before as well as adding ot the roles.

Regarding dh I think there is a lot going on for the 2 of you and you both need time to talk and also support individually and as a couple.

His comment maybe his way of saying - where has the woman i met/married gone? You havent lost your marbles you have had alot on your plate.

I am so sorry about your mum that must be hard and i really feel for you.

For what it is worth you sound lovely and like a fab mum - but you dont need to be perfect x

Thanks Awen-
You talk a lot of sense.
Night xx

nite tatler x sorry if i overstepped the mark

Tatler, your post of 11.01 really struck some chords with me. This is really long and might be rambling in places but I wanted to share my story of depression and how I got over it. I had depression for a long time and I have to say it is exhausting for you of course, but also for those you live with. Would you agree with your DH that you haven?t progressed in a year? That does seem a long time to be treading water. If you have to force yourself to function then it suggests he?s right. And, I know it?s not what you want to hear but people only have so much energy to deal with things constructively. He sound like he?s ran out of resources. He obviously still loves you but depression can and often will destroy families.

When you say he has to take some responsibility what do you mean? I used to rely on my DP to provide all of my needs, physical and emotional, and of course he cracked under the pressure. It isn?t his job to prop you up. I know that sounds harsh, but I think the depression itself may be making it impossible for you to see the situation as it really is. If you trust your DH and think he has your families best interests at heart then maybe you should try putting your trust in him completely and trying to take some responsibility yourself. I don?t mean to be inflammatory by saying that, please believe me. I just know that depression makes us into very self absorbed and selfish people. It will only feed your paranoia about things too. I?ve been through this myself, so I do sympathise but I don?t think the course you?re on is helping things much.

DP once said to me that it was like I was falling into a black hole (you know, one of the ones in the films) and that I was constantly struggling against the gravity that tried to pull me down. His advice to me was to stop struggling. To let myself be pulled into it and then be reborn into a new universe. I had to face my greatest fears to do it, admit to my failings and take responsibility for them. It was the hardest thing I?ve ever had to do ? giving birth was a breeze in comparison ? and at times I didn?t think I?d do it. Sometimes he said things which broke my heart, but deep down I knew they were true. And it was worth it because we made it through to the other side.

I understand where you?re coming from Awen, but I think a romantic meal is just a sticking plaster in this situation and I bet it would be disastrous. Tatler, you and your husband?s, and maybe even your children?s pain is too profound to be healed like that. The space between you is obviously growing though and slowly needs to be turned around. His pub time is like your late nighttime. You would resent giving that up aswell at the moment wouldn?t you? Try not to resent him. He?s only human and is in a situation where he feels powerless and his life is passing by in misery. He has broken down. But you are still together so there is still hope.

And I don?t know about finding time for you yourself and not you as mother or wife. You are all of these things and need to find a way to readjust your identity to encompass them all. You don?t exist outside of being a mother or a partner or a friend or a daughter or a work colleague. You are all these things, do you see that I mean, and none isolation? We all are. Trying to separate yourself from these essences will be a Sisyphean task and you?ll never achieve it.

Don?t forget I am just speaking as I have found myself. These are the things that helped me recover fully from a debilitating and chronic depression. With some help from ad?s too. Coming out of it I can now see the monster I was, that I was the black hole sucking the life out of those that loved me. My DP said things like yours and much worse and I hated him at the time for shoving such a grotesque picture my life as it was into my face but am so grateful to him now. I can look at my son and the world without projecting all of my own negativity, fear and hatred onto it. I really hope I haven?t offended you. I just wanted to let you know my story and to say there is another way.

mt - an incredible post and worded so very very well. x

Thanks Awen. It's not a typical approach and can prone to misunderstanding so that means alot. I just know that for years I indulged the depression and only exacerbated my problems without ever realising it. It was always someone else?s failure.

I am on ad's right now for PND, but the bout of depression I'm talking about below lasted from the ages of..well as early as I can remember 5 or 6 maybe up to 30. My mother was depressed and never faced her problems and hence my sisters and me lived a depressed life and grew into depressed adults.

I tackled the PND I have at the moment as soon as I began to recognise the pathology emerging - bitterness, resentfulness, anger and an insatiable neediness. I didn't want to inflict it on DP again or DS at all.

I've dealt with the past that was the cause of my 1st depression, or rather I've just learnt to accept it and move on which is all we can do. I see so many people adrift with this condition in RL and here on MN and I find it so tragic, especially when people don't go to the doctors and let it eat them alive.

Sorry, I'm going on again. I always post like this on this subject. I just really want to help if I can.