Israel Flouts International Law Again and Murders Innocent People.

[jodevizes]

The Israeli armed forces have flouted international law by attacking civilian ships in international waters and killing civillians.
As usual they lied and said they were shot at first. Then they said they were attacked with sticks and knives. Well, pardon my ignorance, but if you are sailing in international waters, if you are attacked, you are justified in defending yourself. If this were off the Somalia coast, they would be called pirates.

They are slowly strangling the Gaza strip by denying it access to building materials so that the people can rebuild their houses and schools.

They are not joining talks to keep the Middle East nuclear free

What a shame George and Tony aren't still in power, they could have found another country to invade.

Oh yeah, sure. I must be Israeli to understand the threat Israel faces. Not that it's any of your business but I'm not Israeli.

You miss the obvious point that Israel only has military strength open to it as a way of defending itself because you choose to misunderstand/be ignorant of/ mislead about the threats it faces and the constant threats of a number of muslim countries and groups to 'annihilate' it.

We obviously aren't going to come to any agreement, Bessie, but are you suggesting that Israel has the right to exist even if it means eradicating the Palestinian populations in the occupied territories?

No, of course not. I am saying that Israel has been put in a very difficult position, whereby it is threatened with destruction on a daily basis by countries who make the destruction of Israel a key part of their policy and aim nuclear weapons at it, by groups who align themselves with Palestinians and call for the overthrow of Israel, by people firing rockets into Israel. Are you saying that Israel should not be able to defend itself? Are you saying that it is right that Israel should face such aggression?

MollieO, yes it is provocative and I would like to see this stopped and those settlers kicked out. I have absolutely no time for them ( many Israelis feel this way too). These people do not want peace but drive the Palestinians out. Not sure of the legality of all the settlements but thought that some land at least had been purchased by them. I would still like to see them all go - they do nothing for any future peace and annoyingly often tend to have American accents.

I'm saying that Israel should conduct itself in such a way that they demonstrate their commitment to a sustainable peace with their neighbors, instead of the arrogant propoganda-driven destructive insanity they currently display.

Yes, I think the people who claim they want the destruction of Israel should be ignored and the way toward peace and respect be a national and political focus. Yes, I believe it would have been much more in the Israeli best interests to not respond to rocket attacks by killing a thousand Palestinians, because I don't think the rocket attacks represented an existential threat to Israel.

Israel needs to stop responding to every provocation with an overwhelming and disproportionate display of force. And they need to stop settlements and wall building and blockades, now. They need to establish meaningful and respectful diplomatic and trade arrangements with their neighbors. And they need to address the extreme racism toward Palestinians which is endemic in Israeli culture.

The basic facts of the matter are quite clear.

Israel faces a major existential threat. Without support it would no doubt have been destroyed already.

A century ago there were a million Jews in Arab countries, now there are a couple of thousand. Populations of 100,000+ in Algeria are now zero, and the same story is the case across the Middle East. Anti-semitism is government-sponsored in many states.

It's apparent that critics of Israel expect it to behave according to liberal Western European standards - standards they wouldn't expect of their Arab neighbours by, and standards indeed that those neighbouring countries do not follow.

While it's easy to criticise every Israeli act from the safety of secular Europe, the validity of such criticism is highly questionable.

The reality, despite all the blather, is that when it comes to the ideals of the West - the rule of law, justice, healthcare, education etc. - that Israel is way way ahead of its neighbours, and that includes Arabs as well as Jews. Contrast that with somewhere like Malaysia where there is legally mandated discrimation against non-Muslims in most aspects of life including education and commerce, whereas in Israel there is equality under the law.

The way I see it its like us and the RIA, would the peace process have any chance if when a bomb went off here we went and dropped bombs on the people of northen Ireland or bulldozed the homes of Catholics, and stretched the borders into southern Ireland?.

As the big rich government in the region (thanks to US aid money) Israel should be taking the higher ground and looking for peace not constantly using every little rocket (and they are little compared to the retribution) as a justification for further heavy handed action.

it's like an Elephant stepping on a fly.

So are you saying that Israel's existence is essential for the survival of Jews? Equality under the law for Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel? Tried to get a building permit as an Arab in Jerusalem lately? And I don't see us arming, supporting and giving special economic status to Malaysia, or covering for their covert nuclear capability.

there is different educational attainment and life expectancy between 'Jewish Britons' and 'Muslim Britons' too.

"I also think you base your assumptions on 'facts' that are wrong."

Bessie what do you think I'm basing my "assumptions" on?

I tend not to see victims and big bad aggressors, but in the case of Israel and Palestine, not really sure how else to see it.

"You won't even acknowledge the points I raised about the threats Israel faces or the number of Israeli civilians murdered."

I didn't deny it either, I just simply claimed that many of Israel's enemies have been made by their own doing.

"I really can't be bothered to trot out a history lesson for you now."

That's just not very nice is it.

"You miss the obvious point that Israel only has military strength open to it as a way of defending itself"

Because they've never heard of talking and fair negotiation.

The thing is, they've dug themselves into such a deep hole, and pride being pride, wouldn't be able to get themselves out of it. They started with aggression, and thus they have no where left to go.

Bessie123, you say

"What do you think Israel should do? Roll over and be annihilated?"

I really don't care what happens to Israel, It will self destruct soon enough anyway, but what you are essentially saying is that Israel's rights overide those of any other group of the population and conventions like international law and basic human values mean nothing to them. Israel is nothing more than a bully and a thug state.

Bessie it is NOT an other argument for another thread but the core of what we are discussing.
That was my point exactly. Two measures, as always.
Israel whinning me me me poor old me but not acknowledging its ruthless little habit of "confiscating" land1948 is the start of the palestinian liberation movemement.
Its all too easy just spinning that there is no palestinian liberation movement but just some mad terrorists sprung out of thin air.
You can't acknowledge that's the root of the problem then the problem just gets bigger.

I cannot believe that Israel continually gets away with this bull.

Look at the video, Israeli troops (commandos?) abseiling onto the ship, using guns when the aid workers tried to defend themselves with poles and chair. Utterly ridiculous provocation.

But they'll keep doing it for as long as they get away with it.

were we watching the same footage TwoIfBySea? I don't know if the Israelis fired first but it did look as though the soldiers were on the receiving end of the clips.

Two rockets were fired from North Gaza into Israel this afternoon. Luckily no-one was hurt though as usual people were probably huddled in bomb shelters with their children. Local schools would be disrupted and parents worrying if thir children there were ok. But hey-ho.

I heard three people were killed . . . here.

scanty in case you are still wondering why they are firing those rockets in the first place, go back to the begining of the thread and read again.

I cannot understand how it is possible to justify Israel in this particular event (or in general, but will try to focus on this one). Really I find this incredible. And people saying that those in the boat offered resistence! Of course I guess they did.

Imagine a boat going to Israel to support Israel 'fight against terrorism' or whatever and a group of armed palestinian boarding the boat in the High Seas! For sure you would have expected all the passengers to just surrender peacefully. It was a provocation. People trying to get aid to Palestine are already putting their lifes at risk. They are already very much against what is happening. They knew they would not find a group of willing people just wanting to give up their mission. And they went in with all the force.

But hey-ho.... we all know they have links with Al-Qaeda we all know Palestinians do not need any aid because they live a pretty decent life supported by Israel... We all know 'equality under the law' is guaranteed in Israel (Someguy you have never put a foot there I want to believe)

no slim, they are not firing those rockets in the interests of the Palestinian people who will have to face the greater retaliation of the Israelis. The people who fire these rockets want the Israelis to fire back, it makes good press and propaganda. These people definately do not want a compromise or peace with the Israelis and do not represent all Palestinians.

"Because they've never heard of talking and fair negotiation.

The thing is, they've dug themselves into such a deep hole, and pride being pride, wouldn't be able to get themselves out of it. They started with aggression, and thus they have no where left to go."

Oh. Funny. I thought that a Palestinian state had been offered by Israel to Yasser Arafat at Camp David - which would have meant 100% of the Gaza Strip and 73% of the West Bank - but they simply turned it down.

As they have always turned such offers down.

Why do the Israelis keep on coming back to the negotiating table if they have nowhere left to go?

And human shields are very common use in all wars. Someone on this thread disputed the use of children as human shields by Hamas. Hamas do use children as shields.

And I truly believe the majority of Palestinians, like the majority of Israelis and all of us, just want to get on with their lives in peace and reasonable prosperity.

As usual, the thuggish, vile, bloodthirsty goons ruin it all. On both sides.

The idea Palestinian fighters use kids as human shields is just racist propaganda.

"Yeah there were kids nearby so we had to kill them all." How sick that argument is.

Another point I think it underlines is how the trauma of the holocaust and then the collective trauma of the ethnic cleansing and violence in Israel/Palestine has left many people in the region - and those who associate with it - with deep mental issues.

I hate US foreign policy, but if loads of their soldiers turned up hiding behind kids, I wouldn't kill the kids. Once you (lie and) justify the slaughter of little kids, you show your real issues, deep deep mental illness has set in across the region. In fact there have been several reports on it from both sides.

In fact the threats to Israel have never been smaller.

What has happened is an ultra right wing political class has taken hold of all the reins of power in Israel. One that believes it is justified by God.

Those politicians and their supporters detest pre-war Jewry. They hate the Jewish self that - in their eyes, not mine - allowed the holocaust to happen. Jews must no longer be peaceful - and certainly not left wing - as that only beings on persecution.

The post war Zionists were quite open about this. Zionists must take up arms, be prepared to do what it takes - steal land, property, kill children, women, innocent civilians - to make a Jewish (in fact Zionist) homeland. Of course they were supported by raving anti-Semites in the US, UK and Russia who wanted to export the problem, get rid of it.

And you can see the result today, even on this thread. Jewish folks will survive - religious, secular or otherwise - long after Israel is decimated.

Sick propaganda. Of course. Because it's not want you want to hear. Because Hamas is innocent of barbarity

No, they are a civilised bunch who are willing to negotiate and enter discussion

My god. Talk about not seeing the full picture, Coolfonz. Do you really believe that self hating Jew guff? Such rubbish.

"Oh. Funny. I thought that a Palestinian state had been offered by Israel to Yasser Arafat at Camp David - which would have meant 100% of the Gaza Strip and 73% of the West Bank - but they simply turned it down."

But that simply isn't true, it's the way it was reported though through the Israeli and US media. The figure of 96 (not 73%) represented the percentage of the land over which Israel was prepared to negotiate ? not 96% of the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Left out of the equation was Arab east Jerusalem ? illegally annexed by Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six Day War ? the huge belt of Jewish settlements, including Male Adumim, around the city and a 10-mile wide military buffer zone around the Palestinian territories.

? the total Palestinian land from which Israel was prepared to withdraw came to only around 46%

There were other major problems with the land Israel were proposing but it's rather long and I have to go make dinner, but quickly, the West Bank would have been carved into three chunks, surrounded by Israeli troops and settlers, without direct access to its own international borders, while the only territory offered to the Palestinians consisted of stretches of desert adjacent to the Gaza Strip that Israel at the time used for toxic waste dumping.

I do however agree with your next post, both governments are not making it easy on their people.

Grimupnorth - Where did I say I support Hamas? Once again you are justifying thuggery and the slaughter of innocent people. You really need to look at that. The politics of the region are not much more than a sea of scum, just trying to say Israeli politics is part of that scum and a major problem.

I don't care what happens to Hamas, the Likud, Israeli Labour party or the rest of them, don't care at all. They are all murdering scum. I care about thugs killing kids, innocent civilians, like the IDF do on a regular basis. I also care about scale - if 3 people die it does not justify the killing of 1000 in retribution. It is called proportionality and it's at the heart of most legal systems in the west.

Zionists after the war - and I'm sure you can look it up - were very open about changing the way Jewish people behaved. Not difficult to find out. Peace loving leftists they were not.

And Israel runs a huge torture camp, Facility 1351? 1391? something like that, so don't get high and mighty about torturing people...