8 year old girl admits lying about rape allegations

[FlyMeToDunoon]

I felt really sad about this for more than one reason.
here

I don't remember loads of people saying that the doncaster boys had done nothing wrong either.

sorry ladyblablah I'm not seeing the parallels.

those boys were roundly demonised in the press.

these boys are being called "poor boys" and people are wringing their hands that the court case will have made them "lose their innocence".

sorry i'm going to have to multiple post and run, really need an early night. bad form I know.

I have heard some of those things as part of a debate yes - not, I have to say, that she enjoyed it - where was that ?

But I have heard debates along the lines of:
"Was this a child's game that everyone part-takes in?"
People may think that - it is worth the debate and worth airing. Free speech and all that.

Indeed the debates I have heard basically found it difficult to conclude. Which is what I mean about the responsibility argument - it is valid to ask whether they really understood what they were doing - even out of total denial and shock.

"Can it really be true that 10 year olds have premeditated this? etc etc" It needs debate and needs questioning............but again I do not think that is necessarily only something you would ask about a rape case. We asked it about the Bulger case and the Doncaster case too.

On the scott free thing - it is things like:

"She got a conviction but she may as well not have done. It's basically saying to girls that their bodies are boys' playthings "

I don't think the conviction said that.

"It's OK for boys to try and rape eight year old girls. Eight year olds girls are worth nothing, and they are liars to boot."

Again, I don't think the conviction said that and we must remember that they were convicted - despite what the commentators are saying. It just makes women like us lose the argument IMO.

See I disagree that the Doncaster case was not discussed in terms of responsibility - it was. It was generally the very same argument - were they of an age that they had intent in what they did.

I don't want this to deteriorate into an argument where I am accused of being a rape denier (is that they tights' spelling?) because that could not be further from the truth, however I don't think a conviction should be viewed as a reflection of attitudes towards rape......indeed it should be viewed as a victory. It would have been very easy to have let the boys go, without much debate at all. In fact, it would have been the easy option.

It might be a small chip in the prevailing attitudes.

Dittany - I am not sure what you mean by that?

Am I not a good enough feminist for you?

"however I don't think a conviction should be viewed as a reflection of attitudes towards rape......indeed it should be viewed as a victory."

quite. The attitudes to this attempted rape that we see in the press certainly don't reflect what was determied in the court verdict. Sadly.

And I might say you are totally misrepresenting this case:

"It's OK for boys to try and rape eight year old girls. Eight year olds girls are worth nothing, and they are liars to boot."

Because I would say that because there was a trial with a conviction that your statement is simply not true and verges on hysterical.

I just worry that by saying the sort of things about the commentary, you don't take victory where victory is due and thus this whole thing ends up perpetuating the myths you are trying to dispel.

Instead, wouldn't it be great to have a thread titled "Hurray - a really difficult rape trial ends in a conviction - progress indeed" (or similar) And I realise you did not start the thread with this horrible title, but I see it that by arguing that it has simply been a defeat to rape issues, you continue to put women in victim mode

And on the Doncaster boys - yes people did have sympathy for the perpetrators.

Read our very own thread here

There are many people on the thread having sympathy with the boys for their upbringing etc etc and questioning whether it should be the parents who are prosecuted.

That really is your interpretation Dittany. And given we know that the press spout shit about every subject there is every single day, what's the story exactly? Why put women back in the 'poor me' victim mode?

And yes, I only use the word hysterical with some trepidation.

Counter intuitive may be a term you may want to become familiar with

IMO you put women in "victim mode" by arguing the way you do about this case. It has not been a defeat as you have stated, and not once have you said it was a good result for rape issues. That keeps women "where they belong"

Lenin - perhaps that is one of the problems ( that we won't take progress when we see it).

It would have been the easy thing to let the boys off, and lets face it, most judges would have and most people would not have questioned it too much, so in that sense, and only in that sense, it is a victory.

You make me laugh Dittany

Pig headed doesn't even come close

If the press don't think it is progress......whatever. We know as parents and women that it is progress. The easy / usual option would have been to dismiss the case..........it didn't happen.

I am however still totally unsure about the age of all the children involved and indeed would question what was so unusual about this case that did ensure a conviction. I would be interested to examine that if this case were exactly the same, but all 3 involved were adults, whether the verdict would have been the same (or whether the usual rape myths would have taken precedent, especially if the woman succumbed to pressure under cross examination)......................however, it is heartening that at least once, the judge and jury did not succumb to the myths.

I'm curious as to how young boys should be tried for crimes like this.

Looking at my own DC, if a 10 yo is capable of this, then so is a 7yo.

What I am asking you to think is whether the ultimate feminist turns out to be (unintentionally) anti-feminist? That's all.

Yes, the comments I used from you were comments you made about attitudes to rape, however at no point do you make it clear that the verdict was a good verdict for rape victims - child and adult. You concentrate on the media hysteria, which although important, is not the most important thing in the case. There are some positives, and yes, by concentrating on the media hype and shite, you bring women back to victim mode - always picked on, never taken seriously, liars etc etc..............and not on the very fact that in this case, despite the fact the girl wavered on her testimony, the conviction was made and traditional rape myths were dispelled.