Terrifyingly anti-woman law passed in Oklahoma

[SethStarkaddersMum]

I am absolutely at this.

A law has been passed in Oklahoma to force women who want abortion to undergo vaginal ultrasound and listen to a detailed description of the fetus and view the ultrasound image before terminating a pregnancy.
Even if they are rape or incest victims.

words absolutely fail me.

SORRY Sakura - ive went off on a tangent a bit . it doesnt make sense when included in all the post on thread.
i totally agree with what you are all saying about the ironicness of the lobbiests(spell), very very anti -women...
incidently imo , irresponsible men who assume contraception are anti women too. they dont really care what happens to the woman.its all boiling down to the same thing.

LeonieDelt, you're are not alone in your views. It's just that Mumsnet only likes strong stances when it's a majority view.

My own opinion is foetus is a potential baby, baby is a potential toddler, toddler will be a teenager, and teenager will be an adult. Why have we chosen one stage of development and decided it has less value as a human life?

When it comes down to 'rights' over your body, what if I decide it's my 'right' to hurt a born baby, a toddler, a teenager? I would be told that my DD is not property, but a person and I would fully expect others to voice and opinion and step in with legislation and action. Don't expect people who believe a foetus is a human with feelings to sit quietly and say it's none of their business when they hear of someone aborting. How can they?

If it makes me a 'nutter' to care about a human who can't speak up for itself, then fine. Someone has to. Humiliating women who have chosen to abort is absurd. It wont achieve anything, but putting more in place to help girls who find themselves in this position could make an enormous difference. It wont happen whilst abortions are so prevalent though because they are cheaper for the state.

ok, 1st off, leonie was brave enough to post her opinion. Just because we may disagree with her doesn't mean we get to attack her, as it puts us in the same position as those who've enacted the law in the first place.

I'm both a committed, practising Christian and pro-choice. This means that regardless of when life begins, the women choosing to have an abortion have done just that - chosen - to have one. Humiliating them and making the procedure worse than it needs to be is simply horrendous and amounts to mental torture.

And for the record, I lost 5 babies before having my dd - four by miscarriage, the last died in the womb and had to be surgically removed. And I endured taunts from a pro-life nurse who withheld my pain relief as she called me an "abortionist" - this to a woman who had just lost a much wanted child. (yes, I did get something done about that).

It's the poor women in Oklahoma (and other states) that I feel sorry for. We are lucky in that we still live in a country where it's possible to have an abortion. And even here it's far from being easy so any woman who chooses that is definitely aware of what she's doing.

We should be supporting each other - after all, if we're truly pro-choice, that includes respecting opinions that differ from our own (c.f. Leonie's).

And thanking god (or deity of choice) that we're not subject to this horrific law and doing our damndest to ensure we never are.

Oh bollocks. I was hoping this wouldn't pass

I agree@drloves8 - the anti-abortion brigade aren't banging down the doors of absent fathers or shoving probes up their jacksies, are they?

...and then there are the hard-line male pro-lifers. Deeply, deeply suspect people.

toddlerama - then do something about the people who represent you. Because in my experience the 'moderate' voice of pro-life gets completely drowned out by all the headbangers, fundamentialists and woman-haters who share your views.

Toddlerama just a quick question: You said "Don't expect people who believe a foetus is a human with feelings to sit quietly and say it's none of their business when they hear of someone aborting"

(a) - do you really believe that early foetuses have feelings?

(b) when you say you will not sit quietly when you hear of an abortion, what does that not sit quietly entail? What do you do to protest?

Good post Gallievans.

Why would you consider a male pro-lifer deeply suspect? They want to prevent a human life ending. Not that weird is it? Does it matter if they are a man if that is their view?

Those of you who think that it's a baby from conception, do you condone abortion if the pregnancy results from rape?

Because how can you condone the murder of a baby just because of its mother's ordeal? Why does that ordeal make a difference to whether that baby is allowed to live?

Here in Japan, where abortion is widely practiced, there are special shrines for women to give prayers for their miscarried and aborted babies- that may seem offensive to a western culture, grouping the two together like that but in Japan they don't appear to differentiate the two. I think the shrines are for the souls of the unborb children, regardless of the reasons they're not here.
So some cultures have a special place for women grieving for their unborn children.

I think this is a very humane approach. It's not saying that the foetus was nothing but a few cells, but at the same time it's not saying the woman was obligated to keep the baby for moral reasons. It also tells me that abortion has gone on since the beginning of time, and that life isn't black and white. Christianity sees the world in black and white.

How can anyone really be anti contraception and anti abortion? Abstinence is just not natural, it's not how we have evolved and survived, everything about us makes us want to pro create, have sex.

Gallievans ...im so sorry for what you have been through - hope that nurse is struck off.
How dare she judge you.Sometimes people open their stupid mouths before they ingage their brains.

Getorf

a) I do believe that a foetus has a nervous system

b) I think what I mean is I would never, ever attack or hurt or humiliate a woman who has chosen to abort. It is absolutely fruitless and cruel. I would (and do) campaign on a political level to ensure that the pro-life voice is heard and taken seriously, not as a hysterical reaction. I have also offered to raise a baby of a friend who was considering abortion. She chose not to and is raising her baby herself fabulously. I don't think you have a right to be pro-life if you are not willing to take on the practicalities that the birth mother doesn't want. Or at the very least help her to find someone who will.

What about where carrying the baby to term would risk the mother's life? For example in cases with heart problems, etc?

Someone who is five weeks pregnant has a three week old foetus which is a cluster of cells, not a baby. www.ehd.org/prenatal-images.php?thum_id=367here

I had an abortion 20 years ago and did not have any sort of scan. I think that a scan would have made it worse for me as it is easier to try and blank out what is happening when you are not shown any details, especially when you are young and have not yet had any babies.

It was only after I had my 2 DS's and all the associated scans that I realised the enormity of what I had done 20 years ago. Now I have been through 2 pregnancies I don't think I could now have an abortion.

However, it was the right decision for me at the time and I do not regret it.

'campaign on a political level to ensure that the pro-life voice is heard and taken seriously'

How do you mean? Surely within the 'pro-choice' argument, there is the choice to keep the baby and not have an abortion? Why does the 'pro-life voice' need campaigning for? Unless I'm missing something, I find that an insult to the notion of choice.

I said 'hard-line' male pro-lifers@toddlerama.

I was once walking along a beach in California when I came across a delightful little band of men (and teenage boys - in fact, I think they were a group of fathers and sons) holding an anti abortion rally. They were waving banners with graphic pictures of aborted foetuses and handing out leaflets condemning women who chose to abort. Maybe you are OK with that, but I wouldn't like to associate with these people. But then, I do find very right wing, religious people hard to get along with, mostly.

Another memory that sticks: standing in my local RC chrch just a few years ago at a relatives' baptism and hearing the priest (a seemingly benign old man) talking about 'the six million or more babies that have been murdered through abortion'. A direct comparison with the holocaust, I think. What a horrific comparison to make.

These are not nice people.

Obviously, I am pro choice, so you understand that i believe it is a woman's right to choose whether or not she terminates the tiny beginnings of a life within her.

Sakura - i see a certain logic to that.... many women feel strong emotions after abortion.some may feel relief, others may feel a sort of grief. both very human emotions !.A place to get your thoughts and feeling in order isnt a bad idea.
i take it the religious zelots arnt commonplace then?.christian=anti abortion fundamentalists.
i allways thought that the religous element was desperatly trying to breed more of thier own religion by "stopping" abortions..

It shocks me that people are so blase in suggesting continuing with an unwanted pregnancy.
'sweepingly, i'd say 'deliver the baby' - lots of babies can survive from 24 weeks onwards, and save them both.'
Physically and mentally this is a massive massive trauma for both parties involved, mother and child. I cannot imagine having to go to term with a baby I did not want. Going through pregnancy and birth when I did not want to. And what about the health of the foetus during pregnancy? These women would hardly be knocking back the folic acid would they?