Terrifyingly anti-woman law passed in Oklahoma

[SethStarkaddersMum]

I am absolutely at this.

A law has been passed in Oklahoma to force women who want abortion to undergo vaginal ultrasound and listen to a detailed description of the fetus and view the ultrasound image before terminating a pregnancy.
Even if they are rape or incest victims.

words absolutely fail me.

WHat I don't understand, and I really don't understand this, is that the anti-abortion lobbyists are usually the anti-single-mother lobbyists as well (Christian right).
So a woman who feels she won't be able to raise the child well, because as a single mother she could end up circulating in a poverty trap, perhaps would rather have an abortion rather than face a life of poverty with her child.

They can't have it both ways can, they? Pay mothers a decent amount of money to raise their children and then, when you've sorted out the feminization of poverty, then think about making abortion more difficult for women than it already is.

Disgraceful personal attacks on Leonie. Those of you who have used words like 'vile' to describe her, said she was a nutter and even slagged off her parents, should be ashamed of yourselves. You should also be aware that it doesn't help your debating skills at all.

Calm down and debate this properly. Be glad that someone calm and measured, but who has a different viewpoint from you, is on this thread. It's an opportunity to debate and learn from each other.

Leonie you have shown a good deal of composure in the face of an onslaught. I hope you're not feeling too battered.

I wonder if the same bunch of idiots who vote on this sort of crap spend much of their energy on improving rape convictions, chasing up absent fathers who do not pay maintenance and protecting children from sexual abuse and insect.

Perhaps they are too busy trying to humiliate women and make them carry the can for something they are at most only half responsible for.

They tend to be the contraception-blockers, too.

It comes down to punishing women for having sex.

seth - couldn't agree with you more. You also wonder whether people who bang on about the 'murder' of 'babies' could spend a little of that energy helping charities that actually do save babies lives in poorer parts of the world...

tortoise i dont think a mans lack of contraception can be used in this argument , as ultimately its the woman who gets pregnant, and either has a termination or continues the pregnancy ....the men dont give birth or have to have surgery or flood their body with chemicals is it?
(although if they took responsibility , there would almost no need imo, and i suspect abortion would be a lot easier to get if men did get pregnant)

When it comes to the tone of her posts Leonie sounds moderate compared with you lot.

good point Sakura.

This is the sort of thing that makes me suspect that laws like this are not really about protecting the unborn child, they are about using 'right to life' as a proxy for attacking women and particularly women who have sex.

If you really wanted to save lives of foetuses you would have to come up with a sort of 'tough on abortion, tough on the causes of abortion' policy which worked harder at preventing rape, childhood poverty, lack of decent maternal healthcare, all sorts of things along those lines.
I know there are Catholic adoption agencies but other than that we just don't see such help, do we? Or am I wrong?

What I mean, drloves, is that when people talk about 'women who use abortion as contraception' the man disappears. I don't mean that the man's use of contraception should affect the woman's decision. But where's the vitriol for men who use abortion as contraception - i.e., not using contraception and just assuming the woman will 'take care of it'?

i havent read all of the posts but certainly agree with leonie regarding her stance on pro life.

my own exception to this rule is rape.

amazed she had the balls to post at all considering what flack she was bound to get.

anyway - the withholding of information is wrong wrong wrong.

hte physical probing internally of a patient as a matter of course - wrong.

if anything i wish that resources , money and time were spent onmaking facilities better, making the referal system quicker and getting the abortions done much much earlier.

i agree with leonie regarding the use of the term feotus, it is akin to saying - it's ok it's not human yet. which i think we all know is bollocks

drloves, sorry your post didn't make sense, could you clarify.
We are saying it's ironic that the people who lobby against abortion are the very same people who lobby against contraception...proving that it's nothing to do with the rights of the unborn child, and everything to do with controlling women.

I would not hesitate, online or in RL, to express my utter disgust with anyone who thinks this sort of practice is justifiable@SpiderMama.

Thank God there are people who are willing to stand up to this sort of horror (and the people who support it).

If you support the 'pro-life' stance (and I take issue with that term! Pro who's life? Certainly not the lives of millions of women and unwanted children), then you ally yourself with people like the law-makers in Oaklahoma. Own it.

i think the vitol is there , but not as a man who forces abortion ,by lack of concideration to use contraception , but generally by just being a lousey rat-bag and running when the consiquences of his actions come to light, by being cowardly.
i obviously dont meen any man who helps his partner through a difficult time, if they have chosen abortion together .
Assuming the woman uses contraception is classic get out of responsibility card imo.
These people who are stupid enough not to talk about contraception before they have sex , shouldnt have sex.whats so wrong about telling a bloke your not on the pill?or to say" if theres no glove-theres no love,"? .

If you know that your opinions are bound to be inflammatory and widely disagreed with, hence you will get 'flack' in response, doesn't that tell you something?

The pill is not an abortifacient for goodness sake

Umm, sorry still don't get your point. What's wrong with a man just putting a condom? And by doing so owning his responsibility not to make an unwanted baby.

I think all people who think this practice is justifiable should go and live in a society where abortion is illegal and fundamentalist religion rues. See how much fun it is being a woman in a country that does not protect your basic human rights.

And god help your daughters if all you condone is abstinence. Do you look up to Sarah Palin?

rues = rules

Leoni... I agree but a period is also a wasted potential life and wet dreams waste sperm. I think we should try and overpopulate the world as quickly as possible. Abstinence works well all over the world too......just look at HIV in Africa, Christ don't let them use condoms think of all of those lives that wouldn't be born to famine, it's so ungodly.

To be honest I think this thread isn't too bad considering the emotive topic we are discussing. I don't think the insults have been thrown around, I think we are all having a pretty good debate. I certainly don't think leonie is nuts, or cruel, or mad, or the other pro lifers. She has an opinion which is different to mine, and cartainly the pro life and pro choice brigade are never going to agree. I think it is good though to have discussions like this to understand the other 'side'.

On the subject of foetus - I don't think people use that term to disassociate of from the fact that it's a (potential) baby. It is just used as a medical term I think. It matters not, call it a baby if you like, the terminilogy makes no difference. To me it is not a baby though until is is viable independently of the mother.

Again of course I have no problem with contracatption which abortifacent either.

Male masturbation should definitely be banned for killing potential babies.

I am shocked that anyone thinks fetus means unhuman, it is however not a baby.

yes, Posie, Every sperm is sacred