Terrifyingly anti-woman law passed in Oklahoma

[SethStarkaddersMum]

I am absolutely at this.

A law has been passed in Oklahoma to force women who want abortion to undergo vaginal ultrasound and listen to a detailed description of the fetus and view the ultrasound image before terminating a pregnancy.
Even if they are rape or incest victims.

words absolutely fail me.

'What more can I do?'

I have no idea. That's not up to me. I know what my beliefs are and I stand up for them and fight for them.

passionatewoman, I was being rhetorical, although poorly. I meant what will it take for you to stop thinking that anyone with a pro-life viewpoint is a nutter.

I don't think you are all nutters.

I do strongly oppose your views.

I do have a deep mistrust of people with a) fundamentalist religious views and/or b) extreme right wing views (usually go hand-in-hand).

I do believe that it is impossible for these people to be feminists. Therefore, I do not think they have the best interests of women at heart when they bleat on about the poor ickle bubbas.

I do think that the many (not all) of pro-lifers have an agenda that is not really about improving lives.

You might disagree, but it isn't that hard to understand, surely?

I can categorically state that I am and always have been an ardent feminist.

I'm also a liberal, socialist. I will be voting Green in this election as they are the only party which I think hold true socialist ideals centered around social justice.

Sorry I'm unable to fit into your stereotype APassionateW.

It pays to be open minded and discuss these issues without prejudice as they are very important. Pre-conceived ideas about 'pro-lifers' seem to be preventing proper, balanced arguments.

I am not open minded when it comes to this issue, no. I am pro-choice.

Don't waste your vote on the Greens

I wish we wouldn't call each other nutters - that takes the whole debate to the level of a slanging match.

I personally believe that to follow the pro life way to the letter is a contradiction in feminist terms, as you are reducing a woman to status of incubator, whose wishes are always trumped by the unborn child.

To make a comparison between a tiny baby and the unborn child is onerous. A newborn can survive without its mother. A (unviable) foetus cannot. It cannot breathe by itself, it cannot eat. It is totally dependent on the mother. And until it is able to do those things (maybe with medical intervention) it is as part of the mother as her own fingers, hair, eyes. Not a seperate entity.

Another point - I think spidermama made. That not wanting a baby for financial reasons, or because you weren't ready, is not a good enough reason for termination. This remains the point of my argument - it is emphatically the mother's right to choose to carry on with her pregnancy or not. It doesn't matter if those reasons are 'good' (rape, incest, mother and/or child at risk health wise, failed contraception) or 'bad' (mother wants to go to university and can't have a baby yet, she already has 2 kids and wants no more, forgot to use contraception in the heat of the moment) - it matters not. It is her body, her decision and her right not to be forced to carry on with a pregnancy which she absoluteley and utterly does not want with any inch of her being.

See there you go again APresumptiousWoman.

I think you'll find a vote for the Greens will not be wasted as Caroline Lucas is about to make history by becoming the MP for my constituency, Brighton Pavilion and the first Green at Westminster.

Oh sorry Passionatewoman - I read that as you said 'I think you are all nutters'

Would be great news to have a green in parliament. About time.

I absolutely agree with your last point about 'reasons' for abortion@GetOrf. Who decides? Only the woman who is pregnant should be able to make that call. No doctor or pro-life activist should be able to make the decision for her. Unfortunately, most women do still have to get the consent of two doctors, so the decision isn't entirely hers.

(Btw - I don't think all pro-lifers are nutters - thought I already said this? I do think many fundamentalist religious folk are nutters or, to clarify - severely deluded, mentally disturbed people hiding behind a set of beliefs in order to inflict their own warped views of the world on others. Sorry if that offends).

At the beginning and end of this argument you have to consider the extremes, if you are pro life then even a rapists child is a life and therefore you could not decide that that life was okay to end, but a mistake was not okay to terminate. It is a black and white thing. You either believe that all conceptions end as babies or you don't. Pro lifers think that even rape victims lose the right to terminate a pregnancy, saying otherwise is very hypocritical.

Good for her@Spider

What are Ms Lucas's views on abortion? Would be interesting to know.

I don't think they are nutters either.

i went to a GP (not my usual GP) to request an abortion. He said he was very sorry but he couldn't refer me for one, as it contradicted with his own personal views, but he would get another doctor.

He was emphatically a pro-lfer, however he did not come across as judgemental, horrible or anything. he was very professional and kind, and I saw another (pro choice) doctor within 10 minutes. So you can have pro life stance, be a HCP and not make someone feel like shit for having an abotion.

Anyway, I am 100% pro choice, most of the pro lifers on this thread I imagine are 100% assured on their belief, we are never going to change our minds, so shall we say horses for courses and talk about wine!

I'm sure this thread has moved on - but I remembered this afternoon why I moved to my view that abortion should not be illegal (despite my own strong views on it).

In Zimbabwe abortion is only legal in very specific circumstances, so very hard to get. Can't find recent figures - but there were 77,000 illegal (backstreet) abortions in 2005......that is in a population of just 12 million people.

When I was living out there I knew a women (well a girl really she was in her late teens but still very much a child) who fell pg to her then BF, her world nearly fell apart when she found out she was pg she didn't feel at all able to have a baby for numerous reasons

. She wasn't allowed a "legal" abortion so had a backstreet abortion, which consequently resulted in septicaemia and her having to have an emergency hysterectomy because of the damage that was done. She very nearly died as a result of it.

NO woman, regardless of my personal opinion on abortion, should have to go through that. Had she been allowed to have a legal abortion she would't have been so ill, and wouldn't have been left never able to have children.

Perhaps then you also agree that mothers are perfectly entitled to smother their baby at birth if it's the 'wrong' sex?

Doesn't that follow from your assertion?

If not, at exactly what point in its development should a woman be prevented from taking the life of her baby because she doesn't want it?

Does the baby have any right at all in your book? It has a central nervous system pretty early on. It will feel. It will die. Am I allowed to talk like this without being accused of being a religious zealot? These are the issues which worry me and sadden me.

Perhaps it's very hard to write about this subject without sounding extreme because it really is about life and death.

I think there's a place for abortion BUT to me it's truly horrifying how casually it's done and just how many of my friends and family are directly affected by it. It never goes away for them.

I really am shocked that people genuinely believe that terminating a pregnancy 'because the woman would rather go to Uni first' is acceptable. It just seems so callous to me and such a flippant disregard for life.

I also happen to believe that the woman will be deeply affected by this however she manages to cover it up for herself or however others manage to convince her it's just a bundle of cells and need never be thought of again. This is a dis-service to women. I feel for the women affected and I really don't believe this is at odds with my lifelong feminism.

I agree Toccata.

i also think that if we were unlucky enough to have a law saying no abortion except in rape cases, what you would have would be women who would be so desparate to have an abortion, that they would claim rape, resulting in rape being viewed eventually as less criminal, as more and more cases would be disproved.

And it would be a hideous state of affairs. Look at the rape convictions at the moment.

tocfudge that's a very sad story. I would say however that it's the circumstances under which she felt she was unable to have the baby which need to be looked at and dealt with. It's terrible that she felt she had no option other than to abort.

No, I don't believe you are at all a religious zealot. I am not going to shout you down just because I totally disagree with you

As I said way up the thread, in my mind life would 'begin' when the baby is independently viable (with or without medical intervention) so iirc approx 20 weeks or so. So no of course I would not advocate killing a baby at birth because of the wrong sex. Where in any of my post been so over zealous to jump to that conclusion?

For every woman who is affected by the thought of termination, there is a woman who is thankful that she had one and does not regret it at all.

Yes, if someone was 18, wanted to go to uni, found out she was pregnant, was utterly horrified and firmly did not want to have a baby because it would completely unsettle the couyrse of her life, yes 100% I believe that it is a perfectly good reason to have an abortion. That imo is not shocking.

A lot of women do not need 'convincing' that it is a bundle of cells, because they have enough understandning to realise that, to them, that is exactly what it is.

I just fundamentally disagree with you I'm afraid@Spider

For me, the issue is fairly clear: Life begins at birth. So, no, to answer your question - I do not believe a woman does not have the right to smother a baby at birth. That is murder.

Of course, in the later stages of pregnancy, there are grey areas. Nobody would deny that. This is why abortion is illegal after 24 weeks (and many pro-choice people believe this should be lowered, as I am sure you are aware).

The vast majority of abortions are, however, carried out before 12 weeks gestation and at this point I do not believe the foetus is a life, no. I do not believe a 12 week old foetus -that cannot survive outside of the womb - should be given the same rights as a living breathing human being. No.

Shall I tell you something? Five of my six closest friends have had early abortions. Reasons such as not having much money, not being in a stable relationship, not wanting to fuck up their education/career have informed their decisions. But ultimately, they have all terminated for the same reason: they do not feel able to bring a child into this world and do it justice.

Another point I would like to make is that none of them have been traumatised or devastated by their terminations. This is an idea that many pro-life people often cling to - that of the woman who has fucked up her life and cannot look herself in the mirror because of her abortion. I know nobody like this, personally. Perhaps a stereotype of your own?

I believe wholeheartedly in a woman's right to choose.

I think that the number of women who have abortions lightly is negligible.

The thought that I wouldn't have control over such a massive personal issue is frightening.

Women still have abortions whether they're legal or not - putting these sorts of hurdles in the way or making them illegal only serves as a punishment. That's sick.

Agree with your post PassionateWoman

It would be interesting to hear from people who experienced an unwanted pregnancy before abortion was legalised in 1967 (in the UK).

but hers is not an isolated story - almost half of the of the 42 million abortions that take place each year worldwide are illegal - so unsafe and with high risk of death (estimated 80,000 women a year dies as the result of an illegal abortion.

The vast majority of these women know the risks associated, but are that certain that they can't carry on with the pregnancy that they have them illegal regardless of the risk of death or serious injury from it.

95% of illegal abortions take place in countries which have strict laws on abortion, or where it's illegal. 77,000 a year in a population (total) of 12 million, compared to 170,000 a year in the UK with a population of 65 million

"dealing" with the issues that 20 million women have surrounding why they know feel they can't have a baby is far more complex that it sounds.

Restricting abortions will only act as a disservice to women and put more lives at risk.

Actually I dispute the nervous system equalling pain, doesn't the brain need to be developed in order for the pain to be interpreted iyswim?

I have had two terminations myself.

So tocca's demonstrating that where abortion is illegal and the risk of death from illegal terminations are high, the mother's life isn't placed on a par with that of the foetus.

I also imagine that where it's illegal, abortions take longer to arrange and are therefore carried out later than is ideal.

My mother did@Dunder.

The man who got her up the duff was wealthy and paid for her to have an upmarket back street abortion on Harley St (ie. in a proper clinic, with anaesthetic) so she was not forced to go down the proper 'back street' route.

However, because it was all so cloak and dagger, she was around 16 weeks pregnant by the time she terminated. This is one of the reasons she became a pro-choice camapaigner (she is one of the originals - have seen her face on TV footage of women demonstrating for a woman's right to choose!). If she had been able to access a legal abortion, she could have had it done and dusted at 8 weeks, which is when she found out she was pregnant.

agree with your last post@toccata - very stark figures