Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

you definitely did seem to infer a link between islam and domestic violence, alouise.

'Masks' are taboo in many Western European cultures and covering the face is associated principally with criminal behaviour... IRA balaclavas, stocking masks, hoods pulled down low etc. And, whilst I don't agree with legislation, I think people who choose to wear masks for whatever reason should be conscious of the negative social message it sends out. Pretty much any form of clothing or body decoration goes in Western Europe but covering the face results in unease and offence.

'When in Rome...'

I don't have a problem with what women choose to wear. However, I think in this country, hiding your identity is associated with criminals (hoodies, and face covering bike helmets are banned in shopping centres, it is polite to remove sunglasses when talking to someone too because as someone said, it feels weird to talk to someone without being able to see their face) so I can see the rationale in banning a face covering veil in the same situations. Am I wrong?

There are many practices which are accepted in other countries that we do not allow here, female circumsion amoung them.

While some women chose the Burqa other may chose female circumsion for their daughters. I think we need to stand up for our values and those people for whom it is not a choice and say that we do not consider those pracices to be acceptable.

At school the girls who wore Burqas would tell us that we were not fit to mix with as we were immodestly dressed (girls school, knee lenght skirts!), they isolated themselves from us in a way which I don't believe is healthy for society. The Burqa is an instrument of isolation, wheher itentional or forced.

scaryteacher Was it you who provided that extremely interesting link regarding the banning of the veil in Antwerp's schools - where upon the girls had quietly thanked the head teacher because finally they could "blame" their freedom upon her.

Good for Belgium - I don't wish to see opressed women on the streets of Western Europe.

Can i just point out that the heads in my religion, kinda the equiv of the pope only we have a handful, hav said women MUST get Educations, train, work etc they should also be respected if choose to be sahm but if all women stayed at home then who would a lady go to when she need to see her g.p, dentist, optician, bank manager, gyni, teacher, shop keeper, hair dresser, etc etc etc she'd have no choice she would HAVE to have a male doctor, dentist whatever and we prefer women with women men with men as ye all know... this is the head of our religion trying desperatly to change awful oppressive societies because that is not what our religion is about, the quran says all ppl must get an education its very sad & wrong so many stupid arses think women are any less deserving or any less valuable! The prophet's (pbuh) first wife was a very successful business woman & he worked for her this & being valued for being a woman a mother is what my religion teaches & preaches & is all about NOT any human being "chained to the kitchen sink/home" or being FORCED to cover, not one of the prophets family covered their face (so iv read & heard) but that does not make it wrong if anyone now makes the choice to do so now but it is wrong imo to take away my right & any other womans right to do so

Apparently the legislation does not mention veils at all: (not saying that that isn't the intention)

"the ban applies to clothing that hides someone's identity in public places such as parks, buildings and on the street.

Anyone who ignores the ban would face a fine of 15-25 euros (£13-£21; $20-34) and/or a jail sentence of up to seven days, unless they have police permission to wear such garments.

Supporters of the bill - which has cross-party support - say it is necessary as a security measure, to allow police to correctly identify people. "

And it has not been voted in yet. It is due to be debated this afternoon.

It might have been Ski. I was talking to a couple of teachers from Antwerp whilst waiting for the Eurostar at St Pancras last week, and they said that whilst the headscarves had gone, the intolerance towards Western society remained in some instances.

How we know what Muhammed's family did or didn't do at a remove of 1400 years, and does it matter? I assume that the Sunnah and the Hadith have inconsistencies and are the ones presenting Muhammed in the best light, much as the Gospels do with Jesus. Just as some parts of Christianity and Judaism have modernised to take account of the modern world, so should Islam.

I also totally agree with Chil1234 re covering one's face; it is not part of the western european culture. I'd also be interested to learn how close Turkey are to acceeding into the EU, and can't help wondering if this is something to do with that.

I wonder if the EU will overturn this proposed legislation?

Me, I stick two fingers up to English dress culture by wearing a brightly coloured knitted Scandinavian hat. It's got a bobble.

Funnily enough, noone seems intimidated by this garment, nor do I get sympathetic people worrying about how oppressed I must be to wear it (deluded might be another matter ).

A woman in a sari could also be said to be sticking two fingers up to British dress code. Or a man in a turban. And the man in the turban probably has been told he should be wearing this garment. There is no doubt that it sets him apart from non-turban wearers. So do our hearts break at the thought of his alienation? Do we try to save him by banning his turban? (it's for yer own good, ye know) Nope.

I am afraid I can bear up at the thought of poor deluded Riven as well.

I respect women's right to wear veils.

It is something I have grown accustomed to since moving to the UK, I had never seen it before. If anything, I think wearing face veils, while rare, is becoming more common iyswim.

That said, when I see a woman wearing head to toe black with only her eyes showing it still makes me pause I guess- it is such an arresting look.

Can any woman who covers explain why when women are wearing face veils the whole ensemble is black? Is it modesty, I can see how hot pink might be considered attention seeking and frivolous, but why not another colour? I hope I haven't offended anyone.

So presumably Belgian brides on their way to church are now barred from having the veil over their face on the way to church?

It may only be for a short time on one day, but veiling is not culturally abnormal among Christians.

I am not Belgian, but that is why I didn't wear a veil at my church wedding 24 years ago. I thought it was archaic.

'Belgian law only recognises the validity of a civil ceremony', so you'd have to show your face for that then.

throwing my feelings when i heard this one - what the hell right does the Belgian Govenment have to tell its citizens what to wear?

whatever next - will they ban facial piercings? glasses? beards?

I hope the whole belgian population goes to work wearing a headscarf in solidarity to protest at this outrageous removal of their rights.

I hope this is challenged in the European court of human rights.

I wil say I'm not a big fan of headscarfs (as only the French really look good in them) for lots of reasons, but this is simply Totally Not What Government Is For.

We were talking about VEILS, not headscarves. And not bridal veils, veils which are worn at all times in public.

The Human Rights Act, amongst other legislation, should protect women - or anyone - being forced to do something against their will, or being kept indoors, or geneally opressed by family members.

This is way heavy handed and micro-management by the state. The state should only interfere insofar as the state's direct interests are concerned: e.g insisting on exposed face at passport control or other security measures. AND allowing employers to determine when an uncovered face is necessary for work.

By the way, I am not an advocate or defender of any form of veil - but rights for women need to be balanced against comprehensive civil rights. Whuch are arguably being eroded precisely because of a panicky backlash against muslims.

I will be the first to support a woman who seeks legal protection from a family member who forces her to cover up.

abride i think you have missed my attempt at light relief?

and the actual law is worded so that it could cover any facial covering in public.

imagines Belgian Ladies with Hermes draped over their faces, trying to get arrested

"the ban applies to clothing that hides someone's identity in public places such as parks, buildings and on the street."

So presumably this will affect bike helmets, Halloween costumes, protective sports gear, hoodies and winter head gear?

Quite ridiculous...

Looks like the Belgian govt is currently falling apart (again) so I doubt any parliamentary business gets done today.

The old Halle-Vilvoorde thing again, or Wallonia versus Flanders?

Good for Belgium! Although I disagree that women are forced to wear it and think they wear it though choice. I think it is vitally important for communication to be able to see each others faces to not do so makes the unveiled person feel uncomfortable and at a disadvantage. Most of our communication is non verbal after all, even tiny babies stare at faces and know how important they are.

The fact is we live in a society with certain norms and values and some of these include dressing appropriately. How would you like to see a doctor with her face covered, I wouldn't. If we have a complete free for all in what we wear then would it be ok for me to go about my life, do my job etc naked? I know I am taking an extreme position but covering you face is also an extreme position.

The covering of your face is also banned in some Muslim countries.