Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

By Riven Thu 22-Apr-10 10:19:00
its no more a barrier to communication than the telephone.

i did specifically say that if the person's english isn't great it's a barrier to communication. it absolutely is more difficult to speak to my mates without being able to see what the rest of their faces are doing. but of course i agree with you re dark sunglasses, that's a pain too.

nuns are often cloistered, btw, with no-one outside their order and the local priest allowed to see them. i take it belgium will also be banning this depraved cultish practice?

I am interested why the op thinks that the veil is worn....

"thing is dp, we already know you are anti-muslim and anti-immigrant."

DP isn't anti-immigrant, she's from an immigrant family.

It's more anti-"not my sort of"-immigrant.

"If a man like my DH cannot wear a bike helmet with the visor up in a bank, shop or service station.. why should religious dress trump that?"

I have no problems with certain places banning veils in the same way that they also, as you point out, ban the wearing of motorcycle helmets.

However a blanket ban of veils is akin to a blanket ban of motorcycle helmets, balaclavas, hoodies, ski masks and so on.

This isn't about security but more about people's discomfort and prejudice.

I wear headscarves...they stop my head and ears getting cold and they are easily stuffed into a handbag.

That's another cultural norm.

Look at shots of the 1930's in films. Everyone is wearing a hat, working men have flat caps...that's all gone now. Social change.

The question is should social change be driven by cultural norms chainging over time or by legislation?

"if they do not have a choice and it is being used as a form of repression and misogyny then i think they should be outlawed."

Doubtlessly that happens.

However far more women have to give up careers and stay at home to raise their family due to repression and misogyny that are forced into a veil.

Should we therefore ban stay at home mums?

Tackle the oppression itself rather than dancing around the edges of the problem and helping absolutely no on by banning one symbol of it.

i suppose it's impossible to tell, abuse in the home doesn't advertise itself. non-muslim men know where to leave bruises so they won't show...

but the women i know who wear a veil are *strong and funny and cool and are very clear to anyone who asks that it is their choice to wear it.

*not that being these things means a bad dp won't batter you, unfortunately, but that's nothing to do with race or religion.

Er, not sure I agree with that BP - I am not repressed, I stay at home because we can afford it and I see it as a reward for times when I coped on my tod when dh was away. Why would I work when I can sit outside, drink coffee, and read all day?

Riven, If I went to live in a muslim country I would abide by their laws and integrate into Muslim society, that would probably be the reason I went to live there, to embrace the Muslim way of life. I don't know why Muslim women have to wear clothing that is basically sticking 2 fingers up to western culture....that's what I think they're doing, they don't have to dress like that do they..?

Plus, as I said before, there is a security issue here....do you not understand that..?

Riven, will these women seriously not venture outdoors if the veil is banned? That is very sad if it is true.

I don't like the veil but neither do I like fleeces and leggings and I'm quite sure I don't have a right to tell anyone not to wear them!

I do think that there are certain times where they should be removed, such as airport security or a bank where ID is required but it does seem to be OTT to ban them everywhere.

I do think we need to distinguish between something that we associate with oppression and something that is in fact oppressive. The veil in itself is not oppressive unless a woman is wearing it against her own will.

what western culture? why are they sticking two finger up to it? ridiculous.

However far more women have to give up careers and stay at home to raise their family due to repression and misogyny that are forced into a veil.

WTF? Women who stay at home with their children are oppressed? There are penalties for doing so anyway, it's called money.

Most organised religion is misogynist but Islam seems to hold the trophy for oppressing women the most, even The Prophet advised a man to beat his wife but not to the point of serious injury.

How does anyone know that 'the majority of women in Europe wear a veil out of choice'? I worked in a predominantly Muslim school in the nineties and lots of girls were getting married to Pakistanis they had never met out of choice.

Many people want to come here because it is still a FREE country - dressing as they want to is not about offending people.

DP would you also like to ban all other forms of clothing that are not indigenous to this country. Why stop there, why not ban books by non-Western authors and films bynon-Western film-makers and art by non-Western artists? After all they might also not be in line with Western culture.

"Er, not sure I agree with that BP - I am not repressed, I stay at home because we can afford it and I see it as a reward for times when I coped on my tod when dh was away."

And clearly it's ridiculous to ban stay at home Mum's because some of them are repressed because it takes away your freedom to live the life you want.

Equally it's as ridiculous to ban wearing the veil because some, and far fewer than there are repressed house wives, of them are being repressed.

I find this really hard as I can completely see riven's point which she always puts across so well on these threads.

I understand that my gut reaction to seeing fully veiled women is because i am a culturally english person and people having their faces covered is an extreme and unusual form of dress outside of the norms of how we interact.

I started a thread a while ago on here to see if people knew how the veiling works in practice - if all the women were fully veiled, how would I know which women I was acquianted with when I went to the shops? The answer was that I wouldn't. That removes something from my life.

Ditto thinking about working and so on. If women are fully veiled how does it work with meetings at work? With clients? What about jobs in factories with dangerous machinery or working in theatre in hospital?

All of these sorts of things - being fully veiled would seem a hindrance and a barrier to taking part in lots of aspects and having access to opportunities in the UK.

The places where most women are fully veiled - I don't think they normally have client facing jobs or work as surgeons? If so - are there different rules for those interactions? Or is it the case that in countries where women have to be veiled, they are usually indoors, or with other women, and their children, and living totally different lives to women in the UK?

So I mean - if women choose to wear this garb then they are effectively opting out of large chunks of what our society does. As people have pointed out on other threads - other groups of people opt out too. But there is a danger here that not all of the women are making an active choice - that there are women who would like to mix and get a job as a particle physicist or whatever but their clothing prevents that.

I probably haven't explained that very well but it just makes me uncomfortable. By wearing the clothes, it's as if these women are saying "you can stick your opportunities and your capacity to earn and your education, women's place is hidden, at home, with the kids" sort of thing. And I don't understand why a woman would want to be that way.

Or maybe lots of people will come and tell me that there are plenty of fully veiled women in the UK (or abroad) who work as engineers and surgeons and captains of industry and so on.

Aitch you know what I'm saying...if I went to live in Afghanistan I would leave my sparkly hotpants in the UK...