Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Getting an early night but wanted to quickly say how much I am enjoying this. i love it when threads calm down a bit and people start coversing rather than fighting IYSWIM.

cagedbird your 19.29 post was v interesting and the "crib" notes to maths point really helped me to understand what she meant as well.

good stuff

Just thinking about this a lot, have to admit my intolerance of the veil and people who wear it does alarm me. I don't want to hold any prejudice but feel that I do when it comes to wearing the veil and the husbands when standing next to their covered wives in shorts and a t shirt. Anyway so I was thinking that I would be against any veil should it be a Hindu tradition, Jewish or whatever religion and don't think I would feel so much bias if it were for both sexes. I digress....

For most Islam seems like an exclusive religion, one that only has regard for it's followers and this is pushed by much media coverage of Islam. It has to be said the most damaging press for Islam and Muslims comes from idiots who do things like protest against British troops and call them murderers or against drawing of the Prophet and then any other extremist that verbally or actually attacks Britain and/or the West. However Islam is a peaceful religion and teaches people to be kind to people of other faiths, in particular Christians and Jews, I just wonder where it all goes wrong for some followers. Of course if you search hard enough there are plenty of 'kill all non believer' verses in the Koran, which I'm sure some Muslims hold on to. Perhaps the extra 700 years has helped Christianity to ignore parts of it's Bible, helped followers to take the good bits and interpret some as meaningful and some as not. Perhaps the learning of the whole Koran leaves Muslims to interpret the whole thing without any modern context or reinterpretation, I just don't know. The violence associated with this religion makes everything about it, to the non believer, frightening. The veil wearing simply ties all these things in a knot and makes people uncomfortable for all the reasons above, rightly or wrongly. In a cohesive society everyone must compromise and I think not wearing a veil would be a small price for a more accepting and integrated UK.

appalling and illiberal decision to demonise veil.dont like this at all

"Culture in the West, western culture, has come to mean an assumption that religion is essentially a private matter"

That understanding has only been reached through the Dark Ages and a very bloody Renaissance.

Islam has come 600 years after Christianity. It is only natural that its "Dark Ages" (of literal interpretation of scripture, death sentences for religious "crimes" etc) are still continuing. We can only hope that their transition into "Enlightenment" will be less bloody

"What free country would that be, with state surveillance on every single corner?"

I believe that place is called "Central London", actually.

When I see a veiled woman I think of both the Taleban (burkas) and Wahabi (niqab).

'I think being fearful of someone's face covering hasn't always been such an issue. I don't think it's fair to compare a balaclava to a veil although it must be said there was a time where it was fine to wear balaclava's'
I'm probably a lot older than you and balaclavas (except on small children) always make me very cautious. I grew up with the threat of the IRA, and equate covered faces with them (you can still see this when the RealIRA or whatever they call themselves now) fire over the graves at funerals - footage of this on TV recently. It is also associated with crime in the UK, even going back to the highwaymen and footpads disguising their faces in the 18th/19th centuries.

I also think that the strong aversion to Islam comes from the way in which some Imams come to this country to radicalise and preach what is in effect sedition. There is a reason London is known as Londonistan.

The problem perhaps is that the other main religions in this country are older and therefore more tolerant of each other. Islam is comparatively young (632CE rough start date?), and could be said to be going through what Christianity went through in the late Middle Ages/early Tudor times - breaking with the past and coming to terms with the future.

ISNT - one of the fundamental precepts of Buddhism is to do no harm to any living thing. They do NOT blow people up using suicide bombers.

Posie, I liked your last post . You have raised many true and salient points:

"when it comes to wearing the veil and the husbands when standing next to their covered wives in shorts and a t shirt"

I absolutely hate this! It's utter hypocrisy

"It has to be said the most damaging press for Islam and Muslims comes from idiots who do things like protest against British troops and call them murderers or against drawing of the Prophet and then any other extremist that verbally or actually attacks Britain and/or the West."

Again completely agree, it's always a complete over-reaction and shows sheer stupidity

"The violence associated with this religion makes everything about it, to the non believer, frightening. The veil wearing simply ties all these things in a knot and makes people uncomfortable for all the reasons above, rightly or wrongly. In a cohesive society everyone must compromise and I think not wearing a veil would be a small price for a more accepting and integrated UK."

I actually can see your point here.

Quite Cote, but how long do we have to wait, and how do we deal with the Islamic path to 'Enlightenment'?

It has to come from within. Our best strategy, imho, would be to leave them to it and not be involved.

Radicalisation of Muslims had not occurred in a vacuum - there are numerous global political issues and situations which have made it very easy for extremists to influence people.

I don't see how though Cote, after July 7th, we can't leave them to it; it is too close to home.

Saadia, you could say that about many young men - but you don't see many non Muslim Brits going off to the training camps, or blowing themselves up on the tube or the bus do you?

I think there will come a time as someone said earlier that the choice may be between religion and love of country. What happens then?

actually lots of non-Muslim people become terrorists for a cause - the IRA, ETA...I'm sure there are more - it's not just a Muslim thing.

Tamil Tigers

The IRA and ETA are more political though - and neither the IRA or ETA have succeeded in their aims; nor have the Tamil Tigers.

What makes radicalised Muslims think that suicide bombing will work here? If they think it will they have fundamentally misunderstood the British psyche imo.

Good point scaryteacher.

I'm with saadia on global issues which have contributed to perfect setting for radicalisation.

Europe is fearful of Islam and the media focus is on those people who haven't integrated. It's put those communities in a position where they have to often assure the general public that they are not radical. On the defensive, so to speak.

The UK, in the main, has taken the view of please do come and live how you like. We were fearful of patriotism and, I think, this has to degree meant that a) many don't know what British is (I don't) b) it's getting segregated now.

Issues of citizenship and Britishness have come to forefront since 9/11 and I wonder whether people suddenly started to look at veils with suspicion (they've been around years - nothing new) and very 'other' and this has provoked the debate here.

Things have changed alot in my lifetime and will continue to change - that's the nature of society.

I do sometimes wonder whether as a nation we've left it too late to regain a national identity?

"you might find this interesting www.howtodothings.com/religion-spirituality/how-to-respect-a-muslim-woman-who-wears-a-veil"

Math your posts are very interesting. Adding a huge amount. They clarify the steps by which the full veil represents fundamentalism (and to me, oppression, although that doesn't mean I think every woman who wears one is oppressed.)

There are very few people in the UK who could articulate, as well as that, why they do not wish to see the full veil worn by women in the UK or Europe; and it is extremely unfair to say that if they cannot articulate it, their dislike of the full veil will be put down to Islamophobia or some kind of childish bank robber fear.

It's unbelievable that supporters of veil wearers have been unable to make those connections and to move towards that understanding, without you pointing out every single step of the way.

Radicalisation of Muslims had not occurred in a vacuum - there are numerous global political issues and situations which have made it very easy for extremists to influence people.

Saadia: this is true: but it is not all reactive.

mmr it isn't all reactive, it just gave them an excuse.

Ninjacat I thought that was very thought-provoking except

"The real problem for the woman who does not like the veil, is that she cannot imagine a life without the ever-present and unnecessary male attention. She doesn't know how a woman could lead a happy and fulfilled existence if men were not allowed to admire her beauty or enjoy her company. Consequently, when a shining example of such a woman passes her by on the road, she turns up her nose in disgust."

I did think this to be a little arrogant, not every unveiled woman wants to have men's attention.

"it is extremely unfair to say that if they cannot articulate it, their dislike of the full veil will be put down to Islamophobia or some kind of childish bank robber fear.

It's unbelievable that supporters of veil wearers have been unable to make those connections and to move towards that understanding, without you pointing out every single step of the way."

The thing is mmr, some people do think like that, they do have a childish terrorism fear or are Islamophobic, so unless they articulate why they don't like it (and not everybody has done so on this thread in the manner math did, but still got their point across), thus how do you know they don't feel like that. It would be extrememly naive to believe everybody who doesn't like the veil, doesn't like it for math's reasons.

As giveitago points out (and as I did earlier) veils have been around for years and yet has only recently (after 9/11) come under so much scrutiny.

You are right though, any change has to come from within.

The point about observing the cultural norm, however, is that the pressure is on the one who differs from the cultural norm to show understanding of the cultural norm -- and that comes from respect.

That is why it is unfair to say to people: if you don't like this, and if you are not well educated enough, or have not seen enough of the world, to be able to articulate the similarities between Wahabism and Talibanisation, to analyse the different observances of the Quran, to place in context the radicalisation of Islam and fundamentalism terrorism, then we can assume you are Islamophobic and we will dismiss your view.

No. It is the prerogrative of the dominant cultural norm to wish to preserve it: even without necessarily understanding why: a principle I, and I'm guessing most people of some understanding on this thread, respect when we are outside of our own cultural norm.

Our tolerance is famous: as giveitago points out. It deserves respect in return, not contempt.

"ISNT - one of the fundamental precepts of Buddhism is to do no harm to any living thing. They do NOT blow people up using suicide bombers. "

Oh for crying out loud, I was pointing out to mumblechum that its not just islam that likes to bow its opponents to kingdom come.

Why is everybody always so desperate to pick out something and go "nernerner you're wrong" it gets so annoying sometimes.

The fact that muslims are not the only people who bow people up in the name of religion needed saying in response to that earlier comment.

ISNT...have you got a problem with your 'l'?

If all you ever read or heard about Islam was terrorism and extremism and all you 'saw' were veiled women(because most Muslims don't stand out from the crowd) then perhaps that is where fear and ignorance dwell. We need more prominent moderate Muslims to rise up and become the speakers for Islam, we need to hear more from these Muslims so they become loudest voices.

yes DD pulled it off a while back and its not been right since

well spotted

I was just catching up and apart from getting riled I have just read

"I do sometimes wonder whether as a nation we've left it too late to regain a national identity? "

and the thing is that I think the UK actually has a very very strong identity - people who are it know what it means and what its all about. we just don't have a written constitution a la america or go in for shouting about what it is that makes you "british". but I think that there is a very strong identity. and definitely if you split it down to the constituent countries or even counties. I think that we are concerned about being "nationalistic" and not inclusive so go about it quietly IYSWIM

Exactly Posieparker. Baroness Warsi for a start. And yet when she does she is pelted with eggs by extremists.

Anyone else is always going to be vulnerable to accusations of racism and Islamophobia, if this thread is anything to go by.