Fox hunting

[lucy123]

Fed up, need a stimulating debate....

So, on the one hand we have a gang of very scary country ladies who think that 1000s of jobs would be lost if hunting was banned. What nonsense - they should try going riding without a fox every now and then to save those jobs.

On the other hand we have a day's debate on the subject in parliament when there are many more pressing issues: in particular the little matter of manipulation of opinion over the Iraq war. Is this a diversion?

Why not debate about fox hunting? I know there are a lot more important issues out there, but everyone needs a distraction every now and then. Whilst the debate on fox hunting will not save the world, it's a nice juicy topic to get stuck into ('scuse the imagery).

I too would not have a problem killing animals myself to eat, I'm not squeamish in that way. It is not enjoyable, but in some situations it is necessary. Therefore if we take the necessity out of the situation, what enjoyment could people possibly get from seeing a fox get torn apart by a baying pack of hounds? Surely no animal deserves that kind of death. These people actually go home saying "Oh, job well done!" and patting each other on the back. I'm sure for most of us, it would make us feel sick for the rest of the day, but the hunters are actually proud of what they do. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Oooh, well this thread has grown since I've been under my rock.

SueW, people's pets are frequently terrorised and killed by the hunt.

Mears and Jasper, foxes are opportunist killers. They will kill whatever is available and left undisturbed will remove it and store it for a time when food is scarce. If you don't secure your animals then of course a fox is going take advantage of the situation.

Northener, IMO yes, definately ban fishing. Contrary to popular opinion fish do have nervous systems and do feel pain.

Sambo, load of rubbish about anglers caring about rivers and wildife. They portray themselves as guardians of the countryside - just like hunters - and then kill loads of animals (and not just fish). Ban shooting too. Needless slaughter, it doesn't help anyone, it's just bloodlust.

Enid, battery farming is terribly cruel, but I believe there is a commitment to ban it by 2005.

SUeW, these are barn eggs - just as bad as battery eggs.

M2T - on the fishing - that is just not true. Fish suffocate slowly - nothing quick and painless about that.

Rhubarb, eating meat is certainly not a necessity in this country - in fact consumption of animal products causes a great deal of illness as the human body is not designed for it. Anyway, that's another debate- I think most people would give up eating meat if they saw inside an abbatoir.

I have seen inside an abbatoir. I agree that it is extremely cruel, but I still eat meat - sorry! I do agree to some extent about the anglers though, swans and other pond life are forever getting tangled up in discarded hooks and lines left by irresponsible anglers. I don't much see the point in catching a fish either, if you're just going to throw it back in the water again. But if you are going to eat it, well that's different.

Nothig wrong with healthy debate but why Parliament is devoting so much time to this issue? I suspect, as Lucy123 suggests, it is a diversion. There are far more pressing issues for our MPs to discuss so why arent they?

Do we really need to cull foxes?

Anais - if you had read my post properly you would note that I said that I myself kill fish quickly and humanely the minute they are landed, by hitting them once on the head. I never once implied that fish suffocate quickly and painlessly. Eh?

I know fine well that fish suffocate slowly, I merely pointed out that this usually happens on Trawlers where the fish are caught for our consumption, not for sport.

Quote:

"The fish is killed the second it is landed. The fish that are left to suffocate are caught by trawlers."

ban fishing, anais?!

its just a fish. so what if it feels pain? why should we be prevented from killing a fish to eat it if an otter isn't?

welcome to mother nature, shockingly not pink and fluffy but often rather cruel.

wanders off thread muttering about the world going mad

Is the human body really not designed to eat animal products?? I always thought we were omnivores and that meat eating was why we had meat ripping canine teeth.

I disagree that we aren't designed for meat eating. We seem to be perfectly designed omnivores - sharp teeth for cutting, flat teeth for grinding. We need B12 and can't make our own vit C. Anyway if animals eat meat, why shouldn't we? We're animals too. What's wrong with shooting? Obviously vegetarians think all animal killing is wrong (except when done by animals) but surely shooting is the most humane way to kill a bird. They have a great, free life and then - wham - it's over instantly. And the results are eaten. I've eaten pheasants with shot in them. It's a far better way to go than being a battery chicken. Surely we should ban that first? Why is human pleasure so bad that we would rather ban the humane killing that gives pleasure, than the inhumane killing that doesn't?

Also the very earliest men (& women!) ate meat. There an analysis of a caveman's stomach in the Museum of London. Grilled trout followed by blackberries. And very nice too!

Anais, who do you think looks after the countryside and rivers? Do you think there is a magical team of people who mend fences, clear pathways, cut hedges, clear blocked rivers and then disappear into the ether clutching a veggyburger? The people that live in the country look after it, and those are the very same people that hunt, shoot and fish. I know people that shoot and fish and we are often lucky enough to get the end result for our table! Strangely enough I feel much more in touch with the earth and humanity itself by eating in this way than if I had bought a slightly smelly mackerel from the cook/chill section in Tescos.

aloha, how do you know that the blackberries came AFTER the grilled trout?
perhaps he was the jamie oliver of his day and was experimenting with a "grilled trout with blackberries" recipe he had?!!
sounds yummy

Well said, Enid I think that if we all raised meat, fished and hunted on a local scale (as we did until about 100 years ago or less) we would all be much more aware of where food came from and acceptable ways of raising/killing animals to eat. We are now in the situation where we have decided to industrialise meat and fish production so that none of us have to get our hands dirty think about what we are eating or go to any inconvenience.... and then we are surprised when the industrial techniques turn our stomach?
But the local ways of obtaining meat and fish are slowly and steadily being banned or legislated out of existence... try and find a local abbatoir these days...

Can't have it both ways I don't think.

True, PPH, true.

ps I have a freezer full of pheasant and duck shot by my dh's fair hand.

delicious.

so sue me.

Crossed posts! Was referring to your Jamie Oliver comment. Though agree with second one too. I buy more stuff from the Farmer's Market and have stopped buying factory chicken.

I'm with Princesspeahead, Aloha and Enid but I still don't care enough to argue about it

no, neither can I really. the ban fishing comment stirred me slightly but I've sunk back into apathy now. ah well!

Just off to Pizza Express for my lunch - am gonna have extra toppings of Anchovies, Eggs and Ham - just cause I don't care and they taste nice.

Think could never care too much - smell of bacon would always make my mouth water and all thoughts of caring about how things are killed would just fly out of the window.

Do spend huge amounts on organic/free range/dolphin friendly stuff so am at least doing a bit!!

Good grief, Anais, I'd love some proof from you that anglers kill "loads of animals" apart from the odd trout. My dh sea and coarse fishes regularly and is extremely careful about respecting and enjoying the environment in which he finds himself. Anything he catches that's edible (huh) is despatched humanely and immediately in the manner described by M2T and on more than one occasion he has reported dumping of supermarket trollies and other debris into freshwater streams to the appropriate authorities, so that they can take action. It's not anglers who fill our rivers with poisonous rubbish.
Also feeling self sink back into apathy regarding foxes when, as so many others have said, children here and around the world go short of food, clean water, healthcare, education and love. I too buy organic/sustainable/free-range, think battery and intensive farming's a disgrace, but I also think it is astonishing and very sad that the RSPCA is supported more in the UK than the NSPCC or any other child welfare campaigning organisation.

I studied Marine Biology at Uni and as result we dissected about 30 different fish. Most of these were killed by a needle through the brain!! I remember once a massive Tilapia was placed in front of me. Just as I was removing the lens of it's eye it leapt into action! I screamed, I couldn't believe it was still alive. The technician came over and cut it's spinal cord.

It still makes me feel sick when I think about it. Did you know that if you cut out the heart of a fish within a few minutes if killing it you can keep it beating on your hand for up to an hour!!!

I am well aware that fish have a nervous system. I love all the comments about the fact we are omnivores. Too right we are! We are predators too. Still doesn't make fox hunting right.

Sorry......... totally irrelevant, but wanted to get that teenage traumatic memory out in the open.

Perhaps Anais was talking about discarded fishing lines and hooks? I don't agree with many things that she has said, but she is just stating her opinion, which is fair enough. It wouldn't be much of a debate if we all agreed would it?

Most of our meat is killed inhumanely, that I will agree with. But as we can't afford organic food and we don't have room to rear our own animals, we can only send letters to our MPs demanding a shakeup of abbatoirs.

Did anyone see the series 'River Cottage Forever'? That was a brilliant series! He reared the food himself, all organic and free-range, and he wanted to kill most of it himself too as he felt it was much more humane for him to do it on their own turf. But because of government legislation he had to put his animals through the trauma of being moved to an abbatoir and killed there. It doesn't make sense does it?

But keep going Anais, we need passionate veggies sometimes to make people think about what they are eating and how it was killed.

that was an interesting series wasnt it rhubarb, do you know he wanted to buy that cottage for his own family after the series but the landlord didnt want to sell. Apparently he has bought a similar property just down the road from it and is living a similar kind of lifestyle to that portrayed on the show. Sorry just a boring bit of info from me.

Oh really? I thought it was his already! Lucky man living that dream eh?

well if Im going to be realy boring, he doesnt live there all year he has another place in London. Dont worry Im not his number one fan-I feel quite embarassed knowing all this, how come I can remember things like this and cant remember my own families birthdays?