Number 10 petition to criminalise men who buy sex

[policywonk]

Sign here if, you know, you want to

I'm a man who finds the idea of paying for sex with a stranger distasteful, but if people want to then good luck to them.

In any case I think you'd make a greater improvement by making it completely legal and controlled than trying to stop it.

It won't stop anyway. If need be the 'deal' can be gifts in exchange for sex. How would you legislate against that? The first time a man gave flowers or bought a woman a drink (or vice versa) s/he could be arrested.

All you can do is stop it being visible. If that's all that's desired fine, but it doesn't help with the human trafficking part.

Btw the petition says 'people' not 'men' since either party could be either gender.

My apologies for not being back yesterday.

Dittany, you know I can't produce "actual evidence" because no-one (in Sweden) is prepared to listen to the voices of (happy) Swedish sex workers, and certainly no-one is going to put money into doing the research. They only want to produce statistics that say their policies are working. But, as I am prepared to listen to women who claim they're happy hookers, the words of Pye Jacobssen are sufficient for me. Of course that's not enough for you, because she doesn't know what she's talking about as far as you're concerned.

(And it's OLKN, as I said before, very disrespectful of you to repeat your error. )

Women's Aid say that two (non-prostitute) women die at the hands of a man who claims to love them, every week. 13 dead prostitutes in Amsterdam would be no less dead if prostitution were illegal there - murder is illegal, but it doesn't stop it happening, does it? In Scotland, Glasgow has adopted the radfem policies of closing brothels, installing lights and CCTV cameras in known Red Light Districts and so on; Glasgow has seen the unsolved murders of nine prostitutes since 1991. Edinburgh has long adopted the policy of licensing brothels as "places of entertainment" and was involved in pioneering "Tolerance Zones" - one dead prostitute since 1991, so far as I can ascertain, though of course there will be many unreported assaults on prostitutes in both of those cities.

Nooka, I totally agree that men and women (and men and men, women and women etc) should treat each other with respect. But I read the words of women who have chosen to work as prostitutes and I get the impression that not every punter is disrespectful; mostly the opposite, because these women won't stand for poor behaviour (and they certainly won't lie down and take it either! )

I'm not saying that men who use the services of streetwalkers do so respectfully, but I really don't think streetwalkers make up the majority of prostitutes in this country. In 2005 for example, Scot-PEP (a prostitute support group which worked mainly with streetwalkers and brothel workers, and which has now lost it's funding) reckoned there were fewer than 100 streetwalkers in Edinburgh, compared to nearly 300 women working as prostitutes in "massage parlours" and "saunas". Add to that the unknown numbers of women working as agency "escorts" and in agency "flats"/brothels, and those women working independently, and I do think streetwalking is just a tiny part of the prostitution industry in this country.

Here's a link to some more blogs about the realities of prostitution.

Trafficking is indeed a huge problem, though not really in the UK - Operation Pentameter 1, which in 2006 involved every police force in the country, turned up "88 victims of trafficking from 22 different countries (primarily Eastern Europe, China/South- East Asia, Africa or Brazil) being recovered. 232 people were arrested and 134 charged with a variety of offences." I am unable to find any statistics referring to convictions rather than charges and arrrests, however Operation Pentameter 2, hailed a "great success" in 2007, found not one single person who had been forced into prostitution.

("Trafficking", incidentally, now means everything from what you think it does, to giving a happy sex-worker a lift to the shops, so these results are even more surprising.)

And I think that the way you refer to women who have chosen to work as prostitutes, as "prostituted women" shows that you have no respect for them.

Look, dittany, I'm not denying that aspects of prostitution can be a bit grim. I'm not denying that for women who have not made the choice, but find themselves prostituted, it's downright fucking horrible.

But you're doing just what they said you would - you deny the validity of the experiences of other women because they don't fit your analysis of their situation. I prefer to remain a little bit more open-minded, and generally I consider that if society is looking to change something, we really ought to consult with all of those who will be affected, not just one special-interest group. We ask children for their input, and we listen to what they say. Why won't you extend that consideration to voluntary sex workers?

Um, why can't the prostitute support groups (meaning the groups of prostitutes who are pushing for legalisation) commission their own research? If prostitution is such a well paid and enjoyable career, then wouldn't that be easy to do? Research can be commissioned by anyone with the money or interest.

That women are murdered or abused in general life, is indeed both sad and true. But I fail to see the relevance. What other job/career/profession is so associated with getting abused or killed? I know that people working in A&E and front line services worry and complain about the level of abuse they have to manage but they are rarely bumped off. Just looking at Wikipedia the homicide rate for prostitutes is estimated at almost 100 times that of the next most risky job. I don't recall any other group targeted by serial killers for example. Now some of that might be because of the risky behaviours that prostitutes use to avoid the law, but surely some of that is to do with the very dubious attitudes of those who use prostitutes, and the general dehumanising of someone who has become (through choice or otherwise) an object of lust rather than a person.

No.

Couple of interesting articles:
www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/journals/255/prostitution_research.html

The abstract it's based on found that 'Prostitute women have the highest homicide victimization rate of any set of women ever studied... ...Prostitutes were killed primarily by clients, clients were killed mainly by prostitutes, and pimps were killed predominantly by pimps. Another conservative estimate suggests that serial killers accounted for 35% of prostitute homicides."

and this one from Canada - a bit out of date, but an interesting discussion on the results of decriminalisation and licenced brothels in Victoria, Australia, where street prostitution was criminalised, but brthels licenced. The result? Huge power to the brothel keepers, because few licences were issued (not surprisingly the cities didn't want to many), poorer conditions:

'[S]ince 1984, the working conditions for female prostitutes have apparently declined. ... Workers are coerced to take clients and perform acts that they find objectionable or are forced to take part in "parades" before potential clients. They are compelled to socialize with clients for no remuneration, are deprived of meal breaks, and are subjected to sexual harassment and abuse by brothel managers. ... These women are also ... required to sign a contract waiving their civil rights and entitlement to Workcare (health and safety protection)'

and a rise in illegal (street) prostitution

www.walnet.org/csis/papers/sdavis.html#regulation

The conclusion made here was that all prostitution needed to be legal and welcomed into society. I can't see that being bought (and obviously it wasn't as prostitution remains illegal in Canada).

To be honest I think that some of the sex workers rights groups are deluding themselves when they call for prostitution to be seen as equal to other occupations. I cannot see (and do not want to) that happening in the UK. I don't want to see parts of car parks segregated off so that seedy men can get their ends away, or red light districts in the middle of towns, or adverts in the mainstream press. Given that it is almost exclusively men buying the sex what does that say about society? That it's perfectly fine to buy women's bodies to play with? I really fail to see the need to have prostitutes at all - it's not as if sex isn't fairly freely available. Perhaps if sexual slavery, drugs, pimping, violence, abuse, sexual disease etc were totally taken out of the picture then maybe it would be slightly more acceptable. I also think that the few times when men who use prostitutes are interviewed the views they give are really very worrying. Making their activities more mainstream and acceptable does not seem right to me.

Another interesting range of views here:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/6183491.stm

Anyway, enough reading about prostitution for one day. Personally I work using my mind, and I have absolutely no intention or need to sell my body. The thought disgusts me, not because I am a "radfem" but because I am a woman who values my personal space and autonomy. I don't want any stranger with who knows what motivation to think that they could ever in a million years pay for the right to stick their dick in me, or get off on a picture of me, or chortle with their mates whilst I gyrate around a pole/strip or whatever new route the sex industry choose to go down. I think the sex industry has a huge desire to present these things as normal and acceptable, and I just don't buy it at all.

interesting thread. do you work in this area in scotland, olkn, because the conclusions that you have drawn about our situation up here are quite different from a good friend of mine who works with women in prostitution day in and day out.

oh, and at the oldest profession. that is such an embarrassingly bogus load of old shit.

Here is another report, this time from Canada, on some aspects of prostitution, including that the average age to become one is 14, also the high numbers of prostitutes who commit suicide - one study stated 75% of escorts had made at least one attempt, whilst in France and the US 15% of suicide attempts are from prostitutes. About violence, I'll just use this quote:

"Prostitution is ontologically a form of violence. It feeds on violence and in turn amplifies it. Abduction, rape, submission - there are submission camps in a number of European countries, not only in the Balkans and in Central Europe, but also in Italy, where submission is called "schooling" - terror and murder are still the midwives and outriders of this industry ; they are essentially not only for market development, but also for the "manufacture" of the "goods" as they contribute to making prostituted people "functional" - this industry demands total availability of the body. A study of street prostituted people in England established that 87% of them had been victims of violence during the past 12 months ; 43% were suffering the consequences of serious physical abuse. (4) A research study in Chicago showed that 21.4% of women working as escorts and exotic dancers had been raped more than 10 times. An American study in Minneapolis showed that 78% of prostituted people had been victims of rape by pimps and customers, on average, 49 times a year. 49% had been the victims of abduction and had been transported from one state to another and 27% had been mutilated. (5) I could multiply the data generated by field studies."

sisyphe.org/spip.php?article1596

Ah, I've found more of the sort of information I was looking for about the wider impact of legalising prostitution. Nevada for example - Las Vegas (where there are no brothels, but there are plenty nearby) has a big problem with child prostitution, and also with trafficking (moreover there have been many complaints about the poor working conditions and high level of control at he brothels), with underage girls suspected at some of the brothels - so the introspection process clearly doesn't work very well there).

In the Netherlands 5% of GDP comes from prostitution, and it is a huge industry, with a growth from 2,500 prostituted people in 1981, 10,000 in 1985, 20,000 in 1989 and 30,000 in 1997. Where once most of the prostitutes were Dutch, now the majority of them are foreignors, and about 70% of them have no papers, and are likely to have been trafficked. The Organization for the Rights of the Child, the headquarters of which is in Amsterdam, estimates that the number of minors who are prostituted in the Netherlands has increased from 4,000 in 1996 to 15,000 in 2001.

The result of legalisation in Australia has been a large expansion of illegal brothels, and again an increase in trafficking - estimated to earn the Organised Crime networks involved some $1bn a year.

In Germany where recent changes have made prostitution an occupation like any other - ie fully legal, with no regulations there have been concerns about whether rules on apprentices and job centres apply to them. Trafficking also remains a big problem with Germany being a top destination.

Most of this is again from sisyphe.org/spip.php?article1596

Oh, and in Sweden, which the stats say has been a successful experiment - the only Western European country without a large trafficking problem - only 200 to 400 women and girls have been annually sex trafficked into Sweden, a figure that's negligible compared to the 15,000 to 17,000 females yearly sex trafficked into neighboring Finland www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html a drop in the number of prostitutes, and the numbers of men seeking to pay for sex (at least at home) has gone down by 80% - which fits with research with men who use prostitutes in other countries, who say that if they were caught they wouldn't do it. The Swedes did put a big emphasis on rehabilitating prostitutes and training police, and they are ahead on many other equality issues too, so it might not be an approach that will work everywhere else. There is indeed some resistance, but no evidence that conditions for the remaining prostitutes have deteriorated, and the Swedes seem very happy with their reform.

Finally if you want to read more after all this, there is an interesting study about the economics of prostitution linked form the bottom of this Slate article: www.slate.com/id/2186243/pagenum/2
it is mostly about Chicago street prostitutes though.

how did i know Dittany would be in this thread?

in other news :NO

but why, at a very basic level, is it okay for men to expect to be able to fuck women just because they've got a few tenners in their wallet?

As I see it, with this subject, women take all the risks...so if men actually got arrested then they would be running a risk too and that would make it more equal.

Oh, and saying prostitution is "a bit grim" is like saying slavery "was a small infringement of human rights"

I remember seeing a girl, about 16 I'd say, in a tiny skirt and high heels on a sub zero night, at about 11pm standing on a street corner in Bradford. Yes, she must have listened to her career adviser and said "I must become a whore". What shite, there was no choice, no one does that out of choice.

My SIL is a prostitute because it's the only way she can finance her drug habit.

Who is her pimp? Her drug dealer of course! Who is making all the money there and won't die young? Yes, the man.

And if a prostitute took a man to court for rape...what is the chance of conviction? HA HA HA, I don't think most prostituted women would even bother to report it, it would be seen as an occupational hazard.

I think men should be prosecuted, otherwise we are saying a man's right to have sex is enshrined in law and if he can't find someone then he can pay so he's ok.

There is a mistake in the title...

it should read.

Number 10 petition to criminalise people who buy sex

oh yes gosh you are quite right, fatbob, thank god you are here to keep us right. [grateful]

Agree with Dittany 100%. Have signed.

I haven't read whole thread, so forgive me if already mentioned

I suspect that the 'organisations' who claim to represent exploited women (and who roll out individuals who claim its a free choice, etc. etc.) are funded by governments who have a massive vested interest in maintaining the legality of prostitution, e.g. Netherlands. Can't prove this, but I do wonder. I'm sure there must be a link. It's massive revenue for those countries at the expense of women's well being.

For the women who claim its a choice and who (as one poster claimed) do it to get better money than they could doing anything else, well that is the point, if those women could earn the money doing something else then they probably would. Its their vulnerability and lack of prospects elsewhere that puts them in this position. Yes, it may well be a rational choice under the circumstances, but its because of a lack of power that they are in those circumstances.

exactly, kinderella.

Thanks Aitch.

Agree Miggsie and sprogger.

It would be practically impossible for a prostituted woman to obtain a conviction for rape.

The way to reduce trafficking is to reduce demand.

The way to do that is to criminalise the exploiters 'buyers' (as the Nordic model has shown).

Not sure I follow your logic here Harpy, but will have a go at answering.

Have to go out shortly though, so will be brief, but would refer you to Nooka above.

Criminalizing buyers clearly does reduce the 'market' for prostitution, and also therefore the 'demand' for trafficked women and children.

The accuracy of figures depends on the independence and diligence of those collecting the data. Where they do not profit from the results I would be more inclined to believe the stats are more reliable. There is never going to be a 'down to single figures' accurate calculation of the number of individuals being exploited at any given time. This doesn't mean that the figures are inaccurate. If they did attempt to be 'accurate' by your standards they would almost certainly be false!

""While the authorities judge the new system a success, critics question whether it has really reduced prostitution or merely pushed it in to more isolated and dangerous surroundings."""

Who are the critics referred to I wonder? Do they profit from prostitution or are they independent? Those who advocate criminalising the 'buyers' have no vested financial interest.