Number 10 petition to criminalise men who buy sex

[policywonk]

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Protection? Do you mean by making prostitution legal, as in the form of brothels, it will make it safer for the sex workers?

I've always thought of the legalization of brothels as a compromise. It doesn't actually address the root cause of prostitution, and deals with the immediate aspect of violence towards the women who work in the sex industry, which is fair enough, but a half way house between decriminalization on one end of the spectrum (bad) and criminalizing those who buy sex (presumably men)

Taking the commodity though out of an illegal activity does have its merits. Such as legalizing drugs, possibly may take the criminal aspect out of it, but doesn't alter the fact that there are some acts of commission that are thoroughly repulsive and deserve to have the criminal label attached.

Men who buy sex should have such a stigma.

Yes, dittany, she said you'd discount her words.

Rape is already illegal. Kidnapping someone and forcing them to work as a slave (sexual or otherwise) is already illegal. Beating someone up is already illegal.

Prostitution is legal, and is the choice of some women. Some men choose to use their services. Why do we need any more laws about consensual acts carried out between adult human beings?

I don't think is is discounting those women, you know, just reporting the experiences of other women who have legally engaged in consensual paid sex and then lost their homes and/or their children because of it. Because radical feminists discount their voices.

Did you hear the part where she says that when the Swedish parliament was discussing children's issues, they prefaced the legislation with words along the lines of, "When making legislation that affects children, their voices must be heard at every level, they should be consulted..." and so on? But they didn't use that preface -or that philosophy - when making legislation about sex workers. Not just discounted, ignored.

Who is saying Dittany would discount her words?

Dittany, if a Swedish sex worker (with a reputation to maintain) says that other Swedish sex workers are saying to her that they are experiencing an increase in attacks since the legislation passed, frankly that's good enough for me. Surely you don't imagine that every such attack is reported? That they all result in prosecution of the offender? Where, then, would one find such statistics?

They (Swedish authorities) didn't even keep a separate record of such incidents before they brought in the legislation, how could anyone provide one now for comparison?

ilovemydogandmrobama, the Swedish sex worker on the youtube video to which I posted a link. It's very interesting, though it lasts nearly 10 minutes.

OK, the dead Dutch women - do you think they would be alive if prostitution was illegal in Holland? How would that have kept them safe?

Of course. I think it's a reasonable question to query the comment that a specific poster allegedly would discount a position. I don't understand why, and would like to understand the comment as it doesn't make sense.

Ah, OK, the Swedish sex worker didn't specify "Dittany on MN" , she said "radical feminists".

Interesting article hereon the unreliability of Government statistics when it comes to prostitution.

prostitution sucks..most sex workers are not happily going off to work condoms in hand its quite obvious to me that women are being exploited..and tbh many bothels are being closed a amsterdam due to kidnapped women being used by over seas men on stag nights etc...prostitution is not a career choice... its a means to an end...and the women for the most part are the losers

What's radical about saying that prostitution is dehumanising? That it is bad for all women, and specifically bad for those who end up accepting money to be raped (and even more so for those forced into sexual slavery)? I am pro legalizing drugs but I really would not wish to live in a society that said women (or men for that matter) were buyable objects.

I wouldn't like to live in a society where adults involved in consensual sex are threatened with prison. Whatever my, or your, personal feelings about prostitution, it seems there are women who are OK with it. They're forming unions and so on to tell us that they feel Ok with it. Why do we have the right to ignore them when they tell of their experiences, and only listen when the stories are filled with horror?

It's almost misogynistic, a punishment for women who choose not to obey their society's sexual standards for women - you will not be heard.

Those women who are not Ok with it, are indeed being raped - and we have laws to cover that.

I agree that a person should not be punished for consensual sex..but when money and pimps are involved when does consensual end and exploitation begin?..laws are to protect the many not the few..i think its misogynistic to presume most women in prostitution are happily selling themselves..this is not about sexual standards for women...men will always be the winners as far as i can see

But women are saying, "We are not abused/compelled/coerced etc", why should we not believe them, as we would believe an employee of Tesco, perhaps? What is unique about the sex trade that turns practitioners into impotent dummies, unable to speak for themselves in a way that even children can?

I just dont buy the I'm sooo happy to be a prostitute line...but maybe thats my own issue..i'm sure there are women who are happy pros..to me sexual favours are not something to be brought and sold and thats just an opinion..
of course I want women to be protected no matter the job they choose to do..
of course i want women to be in control and happy..
I just cant seem to see that in the sex industry...
although working in tescos sucks..its highly unlikely you will be beaten,raped or abused at the checkout...and that is a fact not just an opinion as a sex worker,
legalising something does not take away from its dangers or pitfalls..
imo its not a career choice..its a means to an end, a lifestyle sometimes forged in despair and degradation..
of course thats at its worst..but even at its best its about women and men being sold and that just does not sit right with me

The sex workers who are most often beaten up, by their pimps or by violent men who can spot a vulnerable victim, are street workers. Women working in brothels are rarely assaulted by punters in the UK, and despite the horror stories, it would be a rare and foolish parlour-owner who bruised his own merchandise.

It may not be the choice you'd make, or the choice you'd like your daughter to make. But the fact is, that for the majority of women working as prostitutes in Britain today, it's a choice they've made, for whatever reasons. (I imagine the reasons are primarily financial, but as I would not presume to speak for them.)

They might immediately regret it, and only do it the once. They might do it for years, and eventually regret it. Or they might, as some do, have a bloody good time and never regret a thing.

I dont believe it a majority sorry..I have known some personally and its not a job you decide or choose to do on a whim..

I think that it is incredibly important that it is the user of prostitutes are the ones who pay the cost. I would be utterly horrified and repulsed if any of my male relatives used a prostitute, and devastated if any of my female relatives became one. I don't think that is because I am a prude (if they became swingers or indulged in fetishes then so long as they were safe I'd think that was entirely their choice) but because selling your body and soul is not a healthy thing to do (a large number of prostitutes have been abused as children) and buying someone's body to stick your dick in is just foul. Paying money to do that doesn't make it consensual in my book. Sex should be for love or fun, not cash.

Evidence please OldLady - that's not the picture I have seen, or that my friend who works with prostitutes reports.

How can I give you evidence of something that's not happening?

I can't remember the last time I saw a Court report of proceedings against a brothel punter - or a brothel owner - being being prosecuted for assaulting a prostitute. The "Dangerous Punter" warning boards are added to regularly, but not several times a day, and many are complaints about timewasters rather than actual assaults. That's just what sex workers report to other sex workers, of course.

Fair enough, nooka, you are repelled by the idea of paid sex, and Mumcentreplus, of course it's not something that anyone should choose "on a whim". It would, as Brooke/Belle de Jour said in her recent interview, take a particular kind of mindset not to be damaged by the work. But should we not believe women who say they are at least OK with the work?

Nooka, your friend who works with prostitutes - I'm guessing they're not happy hookers? So your friend isn't seeing the women I'm talking about. She's seeing the women who regret the choices they have made, because those choices have led them into dark places. She'll never see the women who are Ok with their choices, because they're not her client-group.

I do not deny that there are many unhappy women working as prostitutes.

But I don't want to deny a voice to women who have made choices that society doesn't like and isn't happy with, either. The two are not incompatible.

Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear. I have seen a fair amount of research about prostitution, and I've also read some fairly harrowing accounts. I've heard allusions to "happy hookers" but apart from Belle De Jour (who I have my doubts about) I've not seen any research that suggested large numbers of prostitutes were happy with their choice of occupation. That's what I was interested in really. Not the anecdotal stuff (although that can be interesting) but something objective.