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WARNING v upsetting: The Doncaster Boys., who were attacked..

362 replies

ElenorRigby · 21/01/2010 19:58

a case from last year...
Here are the details, according a local paper.
Source

Its not pretty

"THE full horror of the terrifying and brutally violent attack on two young boys by a pair of brothers in secluded woodland in Doncaster last April has been revealed to a shocked courtroom.

A hearing at Sheffield Crown Court was yesterday given full and painfully graphic detail of the sadistic 90-minute attack by the then 10 and 11-year-old siblings involving a variety of weapons including branches, barbed wire, lit cigarettes and heavy rocks, which left one of their victims close to death and the other badly injured and deeply traumatised.

Members of the victims' families sobbed as the court was shown haunting video footage taken by the older brother on a stolen mobile phone midway through the attack. It showed his stricken 11-year-old victim shaking and covered in blood as he was prodded and taunted by the younger of the two brothers.

A child psychiatrist who had interviewed the younger brother later described him as "cold and calculating" in his ability to switch between seemingly good behaviour and acts of violence.

Dr Eileen Vizard told the court the boy represented a "high risk" to the public and warned that without prolonged and successful intervention by specialists he may have the potential to develop psychopathy.

The young perpetrators, now aged 11 and 12, were dressed smartly in shirts and ties and sat passively in the dock as their shocking catalogue of violence was laid out before a High Court judge, Mr Justice Keith.

The pair, who cannot be named for legal reasons, had pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to counts of causing grievous bodily harm with intent, robbery and intentionally causing a child to engage in a sexual act. Charges of attempted murder were dropped.

The court heard how they came across their two young victims at a playground and lured them to a secluded area with the promise of showing them a dead fox.

Once there, the brothers subjected them to a vicious 90-minute attack using branches, sharpened sticks, barbed wire, broken glass, rocks weighing up to two stone, and pieces of metal.

Both victims were repeatedly hit with tree branches and fists as they lay cowering on the ground, the court heard. Their faces were stamped on and heavy rocks dropped on their heads.

At one stage the battered and bloodied victims were forced to attempt to perform sexual acts together.

Later, one was choked with a metal hoop, the older boy putting his foot on his victim's back "for extra leverage", said Nicholas Campbell QC, prosecuting. The younger victim was strangled with a clothes line.

The same victim eventually sustained a deep wound to his arm, which the older brother forced a lit cigarette into. When the terrified nine-year-old said he needed the toilet, he was forced to urinate on his friend's face.

The court heard that as the attack reached its climax, the younger victim was ordered to kill himself. He repeatedly rammed a sharpened stick into his own mouth before slumping against a tree.

His older friend was left for dead after having part of a broken sink dropped on his head. He could not be interviewed by police until 10 days later due to the seriousness of his injuries.

The court also heard details of a strikingly similar attack carried out by the brothers on a choirboy in Edlington a week earlier.

The court was told how he too was lured to the patch of wasteland, this time with the promise of seeing a "massive toad", and how he was beaten and stamped on. The brothers have pleaded guilty to a charge of assault causing actual bodily harm.

On that occasion their 11-year-old victim was apparently saved from an even worse fate by the intervention of a passer-by. The brothers were identified a few days later and were due to attend a police station on the morning of Saturday, April 3.

Instead, they fled their foster home, and within an hour had begun their second savage attack. The pair are due to be sentenced tomorrow.

The hearing continues."

For most parents the details of case of the depravity is beyond belief.

OP posts:
edam · 22/01/2010 12:03

I do feel sorry for the perpetrators and what was done to them as children. We know they had a dreadful home life.

But there's something horrible about saying 'there are five victims here' as if the aggressors are on the same moral footing as their actual victims. Yes, compassion is a good thing, and I hope with intensive support they can be helped in some way. But the poor little lads they tortured are the victims here.

The criminals will get some form of support and there will be lots of professionals involved in their care. I will leave it up to them to do their jobs. I only hope that the actual victims get the support they need to cope and to, eventually, live happy lives.

One terrible thing is the two victims of this final attack are cousins. Their whole family relationship has been destroyed. How will they ever cope on birthdays, Christmases and funerals? How can a little boy cope with survivor guilt?

edam · 22/01/2010 12:07

Jimmy, both are correct - they have to serve a minimum of five years but will not be released until it is assessed that they no longer present any danger. So they could serve far longer.

I hope they do - can't imagine allowing them on the streets as teenagers. Normal teenagers have enough problems with impulse control and empathy. Of course I also hope they can be helped to become decent people in some way, or at least to have hope of release at some point. But not when they are teenagers or young men.

JodieO · 22/01/2010 12:25

Buda and Shrieking, I agree with your posts. It's shocking and I can only imagine how I'd be feeling if it were my children.

Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 12:28

i think there is some research to show that people/children who grow up to become psychopathic have often suffered a complete lack of attachment as a tiny baby

There is something in the first few months of life that occurs when a child forms an attachment to its main carer

if this does nOT take place for whatever reason (child neglected emotionally in extremis) it does not develop a sense of empathy

therefore nobody's feelings matter, it cannot see beyond its own desires

This is sociopathy. I would imagine if these kids were in the care system something went wrong for them right from the start, andthey never got that crucial bit of emotional development. That's what makes them liable to do things like this...they are deeply, deeply damaged.

It's awful. I have no idea if they can be somehow 'managed' in order that they do not repeat this behaviour, but it is nigh on impossible to put back the part that was missd in those first days of their lives. Attachment disorder is quite common I believe but not to this extent and a lot of times, good parenting can enable a child to live within boundaries if not actually totally repair the damage.

This is my understanding but I am sure it will stand for correction by those who know about this stuff.

Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 12:36

Here explains it quite well.

As an adjunct, and not strictly a relevant one but it seems worth a mention...I'm not saying CIO and such are necessarily going to lead to these developments when done correctly, and within the context of a dearly loving family, but this theory does influence my decision never to leave ds to cry...! There are degrees of everything, needless to say.

susie100 · 22/01/2010 12:52

i am really interested in what makes 2 people with the same kind of childhood turn out so differently.

Very interested in the cycle of abuse theory as my DP was brought up in a terrible environment, beaten, alchoholic mother, witnessed horrific domestic abuse and is one of the most sensitive and emphathetic men I have ever met. Incredibly in touch with his emotions, self aware etc.

Is there any research on why this happens (it could have so easily gone the other way)

susie100 · 22/01/2010 12:57

Flight attendant that is really interesting because actually the one thing DH's mother did seem to get right was his first year. Was a much loved, cuddled, breast fed baby. It went wrong a bit later.

MarineIguana · 22/01/2010 13:05

I find this really interesting too. I grew up in a very dysfunctional family (nowhere near like this but with various kinds/degrees of abuse and inadequate parenting) and I've often wondered why I am relatively confident and happy while my sister has far worse effects, depression, problems with relationships, low-self-esteem etc.

This will sound like completely flakiness now but I sometimes wonder if it has anything to do with me having a very dangerous and traumatic birth and being away from my mum (who was also v ill) and in an ICU for the first few days. In that time hospital nurses must have looked after me and I wonder if they were fantastically loving and caring and gave me what I really needed at that time, but wouldn't get at home.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 13:09

grr - just tring to find some articles on the cycle of abuse on google - but they're all subscription ones - found a few on the OU library (haven't read them) - but only small bit of others bits of research elsewhere.

nigelslaterfan · 22/01/2010 13:10

So the two attackers go down for minimum of 5 years but what about their monstrous father? Is he in some special home for the traumatised parents of pscho murderous children?

Does anything happen to him?

rasputin · 22/01/2010 13:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hulababy · 22/01/2010 13:15

Indefinite sentences always have a minimum term put on them. Doesn't mean they will be released after 5 years. They will have to have undergone various treaments and rehabilitation programmes, evenmore instringent in secure units for children, and proved they are no longer a risk to others. This will have to start with the boys showing empathy for their victims and taking responsibility for their actions (not just admitting guilt). So far they have not done this, esp the younger assailant. This ill be the first steppig stone on their way to rehabilitation, but it may take some time.

Fortunately research does seem to show that childen who commit horrific crimes as children do not generally go onto to offend like this again in the future, and that they can be rehabilitated.

Hulababy · 22/01/2010 13:18

rasputin - people did not notice. SS were involved. Unfortunately Doncaster SS made several errors and failings, again.

No, this does not excuse the behaviours of these two boys.

But it makes you wonder that if SS had not failed to act properly and more tmely - could it have been avoided?

HellieTaz · 22/01/2010 13:29

my god I think this is totally beyond words. I cant understand the mentality to do such a thing. I dont think they should be rehabilitated....how can they go on to lead morally productive lives..even have a family???!!!. If they show no remorse now I fail to see how that will change. The damage is done.

As for the two victims, its just awful for them and their family. I dont think I could get over it if something like that happend to my son. I just hope that they can all somehow move on with their lives. Or at least cope with it.

Horrid. just plan horrid.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 22/01/2010 13:34

Hellietaz

I dont think they should be rehabilitated....

What should happen to them then?

HellieTaz · 22/01/2010 13:35

Really iy could lead onto a whole debate about nature Vs nurture couldn't it. For them to be this way you would assume that no-one in their family gave the boys positive guidance. Yet they must know some right from wrong as the older boy could be 'calculating.. good when he chose to be and nasty the next second.'

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 22/01/2010 13:35

David Cameron posits the solution as .....marriage. Right.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 22/01/2010 13:38

hellietaz
that means nothing. Children can be manipulative and these boys are probably manipulative in the extreme. They act only to fulfil their own desires, which desires have been warped and twisted by being shown pornography and given alcohol and drugs from childhood. They also witnessed and were probably victims of violence. They are destroyed, damaged people. The fact that they can act 'nice' sometimes to get what they want doesn't mean they 'know right from wrong' - it means they can act in a way to get what they want. They don't care about right from wrong. They have never been taught to care.

HellieTaz · 22/01/2010 13:39

I dont know Kat. Maybe they should not be allowed out of prison at all, or if this was in some American states would they face execution?, or even there are they recognised as being too young??
Clearly they will try to undergo some sort of re-hab and then come out under different names to move onto some street and neighbourhood. We wont know. scary I think. Rather like they boys in the Jamie Bulger case.

Hulababy · 22/01/2010 13:42

What??? No way could anyone condone executing little boys, no matter what they have done! They are still children, even if there actions have been horriffic. But let's not write thm off completely. Surely, as a civilised society, we want to try and mend these damaged children?

And none of that takes anything away from the victims of all this, the 3 little boys who have been seriously hurt by the brother's actions.

Hulababy · 22/01/2010 13:44

HellieTaz- what is your take on the fact that research has shown that children who commit these dreadful crimes don't go onto to becme adult criminals in this way?

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 13:44

having watched all of the Saw moives and the Chucky ones they are said to have been shown - I have to say they show quite well how to be "calculating".

@ Cameron's solution to the problem

HellieTaz · 22/01/2010 13:44

Yes I agree. So in that case can you see them being rehabilitated successfully?...I was btw just quoting someone else there with the nice nasty thing.

rasputin · 22/01/2010 13:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HellieTaz · 22/01/2010 13:50

Hulababy, I not saying that excecuting them is right. Im just raising the point thats all. No I havent read the research but would like to so if you forward it to me I will. My gut reaction to these boys is not one of compassion to be honest! and it certainly wouldnt be if it were my family who were the victims. BTW- never seen Chucky or the like. I dont want to cause offence just merely sharing my thoughts be them deamed right or wrong.

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