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WARNING v upsetting: The Doncaster Boys., who were attacked..

362 replies

ElenorRigby · 21/01/2010 19:58

a case from last year...
Here are the details, according a local paper.
Source

Its not pretty

"THE full horror of the terrifying and brutally violent attack on two young boys by a pair of brothers in secluded woodland in Doncaster last April has been revealed to a shocked courtroom.

A hearing at Sheffield Crown Court was yesterday given full and painfully graphic detail of the sadistic 90-minute attack by the then 10 and 11-year-old siblings involving a variety of weapons including branches, barbed wire, lit cigarettes and heavy rocks, which left one of their victims close to death and the other badly injured and deeply traumatised.

Members of the victims' families sobbed as the court was shown haunting video footage taken by the older brother on a stolen mobile phone midway through the attack. It showed his stricken 11-year-old victim shaking and covered in blood as he was prodded and taunted by the younger of the two brothers.

A child psychiatrist who had interviewed the younger brother later described him as "cold and calculating" in his ability to switch between seemingly good behaviour and acts of violence.

Dr Eileen Vizard told the court the boy represented a "high risk" to the public and warned that without prolonged and successful intervention by specialists he may have the potential to develop psychopathy.

The young perpetrators, now aged 11 and 12, were dressed smartly in shirts and ties and sat passively in the dock as their shocking catalogue of violence was laid out before a High Court judge, Mr Justice Keith.

The pair, who cannot be named for legal reasons, had pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to counts of causing grievous bodily harm with intent, robbery and intentionally causing a child to engage in a sexual act. Charges of attempted murder were dropped.

The court heard how they came across their two young victims at a playground and lured them to a secluded area with the promise of showing them a dead fox.

Once there, the brothers subjected them to a vicious 90-minute attack using branches, sharpened sticks, barbed wire, broken glass, rocks weighing up to two stone, and pieces of metal.

Both victims were repeatedly hit with tree branches and fists as they lay cowering on the ground, the court heard. Their faces were stamped on and heavy rocks dropped on their heads.

At one stage the battered and bloodied victims were forced to attempt to perform sexual acts together.

Later, one was choked with a metal hoop, the older boy putting his foot on his victim's back "for extra leverage", said Nicholas Campbell QC, prosecuting. The younger victim was strangled with a clothes line.

The same victim eventually sustained a deep wound to his arm, which the older brother forced a lit cigarette into. When the terrified nine-year-old said he needed the toilet, he was forced to urinate on his friend's face.

The court heard that as the attack reached its climax, the younger victim was ordered to kill himself. He repeatedly rammed a sharpened stick into his own mouth before slumping against a tree.

His older friend was left for dead after having part of a broken sink dropped on his head. He could not be interviewed by police until 10 days later due to the seriousness of his injuries.

The court also heard details of a strikingly similar attack carried out by the brothers on a choirboy in Edlington a week earlier.

The court was told how he too was lured to the patch of wasteland, this time with the promise of seeing a "massive toad", and how he was beaten and stamped on. The brothers have pleaded guilty to a charge of assault causing actual bodily harm.

On that occasion their 11-year-old victim was apparently saved from an even worse fate by the intervention of a passer-by. The brothers were identified a few days later and were due to attend a police station on the morning of Saturday, April 3.

Instead, they fled their foster home, and within an hour had begun their second savage attack. The pair are due to be sentenced tomorrow.

The hearing continues."

For most parents the details of case of the depravity is beyond belief.

OP posts:
Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 13:53

I have to admit here that I am glad that I live in a society where attempts are made (often with success) to rehabilitate our offenders (both young and old).

I do still struggle though get my head around the fact that we have one of the youngest "age of responsibility" in the Western World (10yrs).

I read about incidents like this where they are 10/11yrs old and are treated as adults, then I read something else saying that 10/11yrs old is still "young". (not directly linked to this thread - just reading an article on something else completely unrelated) and made me think of the different ways in which a child of 10 or 11yrs old can be viewed depending on what the subject matters.

Apologies for the jumble of that last paragraph - I was distracted by a toddler

KERALA1 · 22/01/2010 13:53

An interesting book on this topic is Gita Sereny's Cries Unheard about the Mary Bell case. She examined why this 9 year old girl murdered two toddlers in the early 60s. Deals with many of the issues raised on this thread.

The only option now I would think is some sort of intense rehabiliation, as I understand the Bulger attackers have had. Structure, therapy, routine, discipline etc. Mary Bell was rehabilitated and has lived a blameless adult life. Dont really think there is any other option no point just locking them in a cell for the next 70 years.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 13:54

Hellie - don't worry about causing offence - as far as I can see you aren't name calling like someone else on the thread yesterday who had different opinions.

I think subjects like this will always divide people. So long as there's no personal insults thrown I for one have no problem reading the "other side"

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 13:58

Kerala - that's interesting what you say about that book - may have a read of it at some point (I am literally about to embark on an OU course about working with families and children - which will include subjects not far from this one)

"The only option now I would think is some sort of intense rehabiliation, as I understand the Bulger attackers have had. Structure, therapy, routine, discipline etc."

just read this article about turning around child criminals and the manager of the Unit looked at says

"There are clear rules, structures and frameworks and they need to operate within that. " - so yes - pretty much what you've said

Hulababy · 22/01/2010 13:58

HellieTaz - I don't have the research. I am just repeating what the experts on the news were quoting. No dout the sources of their research are available online somewhere.

Obviously if it was my child that had been attacked my views would be different. Althouh I still doubt I would be wanting them dead, as that justn't me. But that is why the families of those directly involved are not called to make such judgements and decisions about the case.

Having empathy and compassion does not take away anything from the victims of the crime.
It is possible t deal with both aspects seperately. And it is essential that those in charge do do this.

SerenityNowAKABleh · 22/01/2010 14:11

Don't know if it's been mentioned - but has anything happened to the perpetrators' parents?

scanty · 22/01/2010 14:14

as horrendous as this is, I also feel angered that these boy's parents might get off scot free, especially the father if the abuse was bad and mainly from him. Why should these boys be the only ones on trial while the father enjoys his life, possibly fathering more children. I really hope these boys can be properly rehabilitated for everyones sakes, they wiill probably be released one day but I'm more worried that they will then be allowed to go on and have there own children. Mary Bell may have lived a blameless life since she was released but it would be interesting to see what kind of mother she is.

HellieTaz · 22/01/2010 14:27

In society we seem very good at protecting those criminals. In the case of Mary Bell and others since, she won a court order giving her the right to anonymity for life. Subsquently her children and grandchildren also have this right- which is understandable. but it makes me question 'rights'. Do vistims have rights? Mary Bell even got paid 50k for her life story, just seems a bit worng to me. As for the centre in Leeds which treats young offenders, inmates have to earn the right to play on a games console etc. I dont think they should have access to such priviledges. Many in this country dont have access to that and they arent even criminals. I also think a great many people will struggle to deal with these issues seperately, its hard to think of the crime and not of the victims.

JustMoon · 22/01/2010 14:29

This thread has made me really cry. All I can think about is the pain and fear those two boys went through and probably still do on a daily basis.

It scares me that the two perpertrators will be set free in five years, I fear they are probably beyond help to have carried out such terrible acts so coldly.

Hulababy · 22/01/2010 14:50

I agree with you that these offenders should not be paid money for their stories, etc. If the stories are worth telling then the proceeds of any articles or books sould go direct to a charity related to victim support, etc.

I am not sure we do do that great a job of loking after some of these criminals personally. And we certainly don't seem to do a good job of preventing these offences form happening,ignoing the warning signs, not acting over the sseveral years and 30+ times children like these boys were known to SS and nothing happened.

The whole thing of giving a new identity is not just for the sake of the offender BTW. It is to protect those people around them as well, both past, present and future. Cheape int he long run to do this than spend a fortune on police protection over the years.

Justmoon - they may well not be out in 5 years; chances are it will be longer. That is the minimum term they must serve. Also, see belo - the research shows that children who commit such offenes can be successfully rehabilitated.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 14:53

the thing is if you don't rehabilitate and treat them like humans (regardless of what crimes they have commited) surely then you have 2 choices.

  1. Lock them all up for life (not only would we all be living with a prison on our doorstep because they'd have to build so many more - countries which imprison for life don't see reduction in crime as a result)
  1. Let them out at the end of their sentence.......only to almost certainly lock them up again not long after when they reoffend as they will still have not learnt any life lessons - and in the case of young offenders would have no basic skills as they'd have missed out at school.
MadamDeathstare · 22/01/2010 14:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 16:43

I tend to feel punishment is largely pointless.

What we need is for every citizen to operate within the framework of society to as great an extent as possible.

Punishing these kids won't even 'go in', I would imagine. The work needed is deep and intensive and long term in order to restore them to the functioning human beings they were born as...

it's terrible what's happened but making them 'pay' for it will accomplish nothing.

Jimmychasesducks · 22/01/2010 16:55

punishment may not work, but they have to be "locked up"not sure if that is the right expresion, as they are a danger to others.

Lulumama · 22/01/2010 17:03

I hope Professor Tanya Byron will comment on this

i went to a lecture last year she gave at Edge Hill University, and she touched on the Bulger case and a similar case in sweden and this very topic of born bad v nurture/environment

it was intensely thought provoking and steers you from the knee jerk 'lets' torture them see how they like it/lock them up for ever reaction' whihc i think is a natural human response ot this

chegirlsgotheartburn · 22/01/2010 17:44

They have NOT been given a sentence of 5 years.

They have been given and indeterminate sentence with a minimum of five years.

But of course the media will continue to push the myth that they only got five years.

And muppets will continue to gather outside the courts to scream abuse at two brain damaged children.

And people will continue to set up stupid fecking facebook groups called things like 'hang the little bastards' and 'dont allow the hell boys to have a psp in prision'

And if those poor boys who were tortured and beaten by the 'hell boys' grow up to be disturbed and commit crimes of violence this whole argument will go on with people making satements like 'well I knew someone who was beaten up when they was a kid and they didnt hit anyone with a brick'.

My DS is a lovely, beautiful boy but his birth mum didnt look at him or pick him up or feed him for 8 weeks. His brain didnt develop properly. This coupled with being exposed to drugs and violence and alchohol in pregnancy has had a profound affect on his development. No one who has worked with or lived with abused and neglected children would poo poo the research and findings into early trauma.

Its not an excuse, its a reason why children do things that outrage. Knowing why doesnt lessen the compassion we feel for those who are the victims.

Being born 'bad' as a reason is a bloody cop out. Because of course non of our kids could possibly be just born evil could they? They only happens to 'them'

As for not wanting these kids to live near me - FFS I live in East London. I could spit and hit a dyfunctional, dangerous sociopath in the eye.

moffat · 22/01/2010 17:51

Reading about it it is very difficult to believe that such young children could come up with such horrific ideas. They are obviously very very seriously deprived. I do accept that their upbringing played a huge part in this, but still find it difficult to see how they can be rehabilitated. They saw two unknown boys and their first thought was to kill them.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 18:24

oh I'm sorry chegirl - I really shouldn't laugh but your last sentence did make me chuckle

donnie · 22/01/2010 18:25

"these kids are so fucked up they should either be put out of their misery or institutionalised for life" Bigmomma3.

By 'put out of their misery' Bigmomma, do you mean executed? let's have clarification of that please.

twosofar · 22/01/2010 18:26

I thoroughly agree with Martin Narey, Chief of Barnardo's who believes that in some cases children should be taken from so-called "failed parents" at birth. Social workers are so concerned with keeping children with their birth parents when sometimes it's just not the right thing to do for the sake of the child. I know it's controversial but for God's sake parents like these must have been on SS radar for years. Everyone deserves a second chance but not a fifth, sixth or seventh.

Some people are simply not capable of bringing up children and leaving babies and small children in their care is surely neglect.

I blame their parents and SS for making them into the damaged beings they have become but these children should have been removed from this family 10 years ago...anything else is utter lunacy

ilovesprouts · 22/01/2010 18:30

babies are not born evil ,its how they was brought up they want locking up longer than the least five years ,makes me mad as they will get new ids ect its truely shocking ,them two little boys they attacked will have to live whith the ordeal for the rest of there lives

Angeliz · 22/01/2010 18:30

I agree twosofar.

donnie · 22/01/2010 18:34

the more I read about this case the more I despair of the parents of the two attackers. Imagine allowing 8 and 9 year old kids to watch films like 'Saw'. Which , for the record, is horrifying and ultra violent. Imagine letting them drink cider and putting cannabis in their food to pacify them and shut them up. Actually, I can't really imagine it because it is so very very far from normality it's off the richter scale. WTF do we do about these parents? they have GOT to accept culpability here.

So very depressing - and equally depressing that some posters are happy to call for them to be executed.(see my previous post)

twosofar · 22/01/2010 18:42

I cannot believe that nothing will happen to these parents..they are every bit as guilty as the children.

Hadn't read the posts about executing them...that's too depressing for words

uglymugly · 22/01/2010 18:51

There's a bit in the Daily Mail report which to me sounds very alarming:

--
The brothers were with their father at an allotment site when he received a call from a friend to say his boys 'were in trouble'.

At 2.20pm, more than an hour after they left the ravine, the father approached a police constable in the presence of his sons.

He truthfully told the officer they had been at the allotments with him since 1.05pm and said because of this 'they can't have been responsible'.

The father handed over the mobile phone found later to contain a sickening video showing part of the attack, the court heard.

--

So, the brothers were in foster care, but not that far from their father's allotment site. Obviously, they were out of the rotten home circumstances, but shouldn't they have been placed in foster care further away?