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WARNING v upsetting: The Doncaster Boys., who were attacked..

362 replies

ElenorRigby · 21/01/2010 19:58

a case from last year...
Here are the details, according a local paper.
Source

Its not pretty

"THE full horror of the terrifying and brutally violent attack on two young boys by a pair of brothers in secluded woodland in Doncaster last April has been revealed to a shocked courtroom.

A hearing at Sheffield Crown Court was yesterday given full and painfully graphic detail of the sadistic 90-minute attack by the then 10 and 11-year-old siblings involving a variety of weapons including branches, barbed wire, lit cigarettes and heavy rocks, which left one of their victims close to death and the other badly injured and deeply traumatised.

Members of the victims' families sobbed as the court was shown haunting video footage taken by the older brother on a stolen mobile phone midway through the attack. It showed his stricken 11-year-old victim shaking and covered in blood as he was prodded and taunted by the younger of the two brothers.

A child psychiatrist who had interviewed the younger brother later described him as "cold and calculating" in his ability to switch between seemingly good behaviour and acts of violence.

Dr Eileen Vizard told the court the boy represented a "high risk" to the public and warned that without prolonged and successful intervention by specialists he may have the potential to develop psychopathy.

The young perpetrators, now aged 11 and 12, were dressed smartly in shirts and ties and sat passively in the dock as their shocking catalogue of violence was laid out before a High Court judge, Mr Justice Keith.

The pair, who cannot be named for legal reasons, had pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to counts of causing grievous bodily harm with intent, robbery and intentionally causing a child to engage in a sexual act. Charges of attempted murder were dropped.

The court heard how they came across their two young victims at a playground and lured them to a secluded area with the promise of showing them a dead fox.

Once there, the brothers subjected them to a vicious 90-minute attack using branches, sharpened sticks, barbed wire, broken glass, rocks weighing up to two stone, and pieces of metal.

Both victims were repeatedly hit with tree branches and fists as they lay cowering on the ground, the court heard. Their faces were stamped on and heavy rocks dropped on their heads.

At one stage the battered and bloodied victims were forced to attempt to perform sexual acts together.

Later, one was choked with a metal hoop, the older boy putting his foot on his victim's back "for extra leverage", said Nicholas Campbell QC, prosecuting. The younger victim was strangled with a clothes line.

The same victim eventually sustained a deep wound to his arm, which the older brother forced a lit cigarette into. When the terrified nine-year-old said he needed the toilet, he was forced to urinate on his friend's face.

The court heard that as the attack reached its climax, the younger victim was ordered to kill himself. He repeatedly rammed a sharpened stick into his own mouth before slumping against a tree.

His older friend was left for dead after having part of a broken sink dropped on his head. He could not be interviewed by police until 10 days later due to the seriousness of his injuries.

The court also heard details of a strikingly similar attack carried out by the brothers on a choirboy in Edlington a week earlier.

The court was told how he too was lured to the patch of wasteland, this time with the promise of seeing a "massive toad", and how he was beaten and stamped on. The brothers have pleaded guilty to a charge of assault causing actual bodily harm.

On that occasion their 11-year-old victim was apparently saved from an even worse fate by the intervention of a passer-by. The brothers were identified a few days later and were due to attend a police station on the morning of Saturday, April 3.

Instead, they fled their foster home, and within an hour had begun their second savage attack. The pair are due to be sentenced tomorrow.

The hearing continues."

For most parents the details of case of the depravity is beyond belief.

OP posts:
MarineIguana · 22/01/2010 10:23

Haven't read whole thread, though I have read about the case.

But remember that horrific depravity is an aspect of human nature and we all need to guard against it. Perfectly normal and previously upstanding people have descended into the depravities committed by concentration camp guards, former neighbours and friends have tortured, raped and brutally murdered each other in rwanda and in former yugoslavia for example. Things just as horrible as what happened here.

It is society and norms and social pressures that steer all of us away from these depths. These kids didn't have what they needed but we should look at this and all feel a sense of responsibility for each other, not just point fingers.

BigMomma3 · 22/01/2010 10:23

I also witnessed similar domestic violence between the ages of 3-7 and my father was an alcoholic. Also gew up in a very poor houshold. Did not attack any of my siblings or peers though.

Yet another do-gooder looking to excuse the inexcuseable .

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 10:24

"Sorry but how would you feel about these kids living you when they are released (as they surely will be) as teenagers?"

I'm afraid I'm not one of those people that gets hysterical about these things.

They'd have to live somewhere - and if it's near me - well it's near me.

Despite the cases that hit the headlines, generally speaking when dealing with people who have committed violent crimes they get it right in terms of assessing whether they're fit for release, and also in what happens (they don't just get let out and let "free" straight away).

Of course mistakes have happened........but then you know what - I don't know how many potential violent criminals there are living in my area - and neither do the police.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 10:26

BigMomma - no-one is saying that all children who suffer/witness abuse turn out like that - but it DOES happen in many cases.

dweezle · 22/01/2010 10:26

There is another thread on here bewailing the fact that SS have taken a child from his/her parents as the parents have been deemed incapable - the story is from the Daily Wail, so obviously we only have one side of the tale.

It raises the obvious issue that there are some children who should be taken away from their parents as soon as possible to give them a chance of having a normal and decent upbringing. SS have more details of these children than we will ever know and should not be berated for making such decisions on what is reported in the press.

Why do people have children when they have no intention of doing their absolute best for them? Lots of answers to that one but the alternatives make my skin crawl.

I do believe that there are a very small number of people born into the world evil, with something missing, whether that is a compassion gene or similar. Have no idea whether rehabilitation is possible in such cases.

TheCrackFox · 22/01/2010 10:27

Surely the parents should be charged with neglect, they turned two innocent babies into these thugs who may well not be rehabilitated. I read in one paper that they were allowed to watch films like Saw (WTF) and that the mum gave them cannabis. I couldn't watch some of the films the boys watched and I am 36 and only a complete moron would think it a good idea to give children illegal drugs.

DuelingFanjo · 22/01/2010 10:28

I agree Awassailinglookingforanswers.
I really do dislike this hysterical reaction some people have. All the people involved are kids and the two who attacked the other boys have obviously had a hearbreakingly awful life.

I think it's great that a lot of this story has been kept out of the press for so long. Last thing any of them need is hysterical red-tops calling for some kind of retribution.

Buda · 22/01/2010 10:31

One of the more heartbreaking aspects for me was that the younger victim now feels guilt that he left the older boy "to die" and although they used to spend a lot of time together, now the don't. Poor poor kids. I really hope that in time they can build back up happy memories of being together not just these totally and unutterably horrific ones.

With regard to the perpetrators - my gut feel is to want to do to them what they did. Horrific isn't it? That as a mother I would want that. If they did that to my child I would want to rip them limb from limb.

However I do agree that they were more than likely not born that way. And I do agree that their parents (if one can use that term as I don't think there was much parenting done) need to also be held accountable. And SS in Doncaster need to be held accountable also. And then you also have to think about the parents parents. What was their upbringing like. OK the boys father is an alcoholic. Lots of parents are alcoholics. Their children don't do things like this. Those boys were given vodka and cannabis by their parents apparently. They grew up watching violent and pornographic films. It beggars belief. But you can bet your bottom dollar that today there are other children receiving the same 'upbringing'.

This sounds totally and utterly disgusting but there does seem to be a certain element of society these days who I would describe as feral. No respect for themselves or others. No values. No morals. Combine that with cheap alcohol and drugs and you have a tinderbox. Those 2 perpertrators are 2 out of a family of 7 children. I wonder what the others are like.

It is totally scary and God only knows how as a society we can deal with this.

My heart breaks for the 2 victims and their families. And their futures.

And although objectively I can see that the perpetrators were not necessarily born that way but made - I still find it hard to have much sympathy for them. Not when it was such a sustained attack.

sb6699 · 22/01/2010 10:33

I agree that the parents should be in the dock alongside their children - if the reports in the press are true (that they were given alcohol and cannabis and neglected from an early age) they are just as guilty.

My DS is the same age as these thugs and I just cant imagine him having it in him to even think of the things they done to those poor boys. Whether or not they have suffered abuse, they are old enough to realise right from wrong.

They do have to be severely punished but they seem so far gone I'm not sure if they can be rehabilitated

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 22/01/2010 10:35

You may perceive me as a 'do gooder', but I feel it's lock em up n throw away the key attitudes like yours that prevent the real causes of this type of behaviour being acknowledged and dealt with.

And no one is excusing what those boys did, simply trying to look further for answers and solutions than your simplistic 'well I turned out ok'.

to you too.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 10:47

"Whether or not they have suffered abuse, they are old enough to realise right from wrong."

yes in theory - but where would they have learned "right and wrong" from? Doesn't sound like their home life was going to teach them much, and I'd be very suprised if they had a good attendance record at school so possibly not much chance to learn it there (though if right and wrong isn't being backed up at home I personally don't think schools can do that much about it).

We all know children aren't born knowing right from wrong we try

TheShriekingHarpy · 22/01/2010 10:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

DuelingFanjo · 22/01/2010 10:55

OK - Shrieking, what would you propose happens to the boys who did this? Lock them up and throw away the key?

abride · 22/01/2010 10:58

Last time this subject came up on MN I posted that I bet the home life of the boys would be chaotic, drug-filled and violent.

And now we know that in fact this was exactly the case.

One poster objected, saying that she had had a son who'd sexually assaulted someone and their homelife wasn't at all like the above and they didn't understand and nobody could tell them why their son had done what he did. FWIW, I believed her entirely--we don't understand the neural pathways of the brain in all ways.

But the thread was then deleted, I seem to remember.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 22/01/2010 10:58

Was just about to compose a similar post, alwayslooking.

Childrens minds are unable to distinguish between reality and fiction, especially with regard to tv and computer game images, so their skewed view of the world has been reinforced by watching people slash and kill others, they will have also gained a strange perspective on sex and sexuality from seeing God knows what in pornographic films.

I find it hard to see where their knowledge of right and wrong could be gathered from.

abride · 22/01/2010 11:01

Just to make it clear, I was wondering why the thread had been deleted back then and this one hasn't been--yet. Just curious.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 11:04

but while most psychopaths would meet the criteria for Anti social personality disorder, but most people with ASPD are not psychopaths.

And ASPD is not usually diagnosed until adult hood because many of the traits are pretty common among children (particularly teenagers).

AuntieMaggie · 22/01/2010 11:43

I haven't read the whole thread - have no inclination to read people insulting each other for the way they feel.

The fact is there are a lot of children and adults that have had horrific upbringings and survived things we can't even imagine but they don't go out and do what those boys did. I'm not saying it doesn't contribute to it but it didn't make them do it.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 11:47

I don't have any stats, but I would hazard a good guess that the majority of people who end up in prison have had a poor (as in not very good - not necessarily in monetary terms) upbringing.

While such an upbringing doesn't mean that you will turn out like that - there is plenty of research that says the chances are much higher.

AuntieMaggie · 22/01/2010 11:50

Yes but do the majority of people who have had bad upbringings end up inflicting violence to that level on someone else?

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 11:52

a higher percentage of people with upbringings like that will inflict violence/abuse on others than those who had relatively "normal" upbringings.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 12:00

to be detained indefinitely just reported

AuntieMaggie · 22/01/2010 12:00

it's still not an excuse - those that have received treatment like that (including myself) know how it feels so shouldn't be treated any differently in my eyes. Inflicting it on others is still making a choice.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 12:01

well I guess we'll have to agree to differ about cycles of abuse

Jimmychasesducks · 22/01/2010 12:03

strange on the radio news it said they had to serve a minimum of 5 years !!