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WARNING v upsetting: The Doncaster Boys., who were attacked..

362 replies

ElenorRigby · 21/01/2010 19:58

a case from last year...
Here are the details, according a local paper.
Source

Its not pretty

"THE full horror of the terrifying and brutally violent attack on two young boys by a pair of brothers in secluded woodland in Doncaster last April has been revealed to a shocked courtroom.

A hearing at Sheffield Crown Court was yesterday given full and painfully graphic detail of the sadistic 90-minute attack by the then 10 and 11-year-old siblings involving a variety of weapons including branches, barbed wire, lit cigarettes and heavy rocks, which left one of their victims close to death and the other badly injured and deeply traumatised.

Members of the victims' families sobbed as the court was shown haunting video footage taken by the older brother on a stolen mobile phone midway through the attack. It showed his stricken 11-year-old victim shaking and covered in blood as he was prodded and taunted by the younger of the two brothers.

A child psychiatrist who had interviewed the younger brother later described him as "cold and calculating" in his ability to switch between seemingly good behaviour and acts of violence.

Dr Eileen Vizard told the court the boy represented a "high risk" to the public and warned that without prolonged and successful intervention by specialists he may have the potential to develop psychopathy.

The young perpetrators, now aged 11 and 12, were dressed smartly in shirts and ties and sat passively in the dock as their shocking catalogue of violence was laid out before a High Court judge, Mr Justice Keith.

The pair, who cannot be named for legal reasons, had pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing to counts of causing grievous bodily harm with intent, robbery and intentionally causing a child to engage in a sexual act. Charges of attempted murder were dropped.

The court heard how they came across their two young victims at a playground and lured them to a secluded area with the promise of showing them a dead fox.

Once there, the brothers subjected them to a vicious 90-minute attack using branches, sharpened sticks, barbed wire, broken glass, rocks weighing up to two stone, and pieces of metal.

Both victims were repeatedly hit with tree branches and fists as they lay cowering on the ground, the court heard. Their faces were stamped on and heavy rocks dropped on their heads.

At one stage the battered and bloodied victims were forced to attempt to perform sexual acts together.

Later, one was choked with a metal hoop, the older boy putting his foot on his victim's back "for extra leverage", said Nicholas Campbell QC, prosecuting. The younger victim was strangled with a clothes line.

The same victim eventually sustained a deep wound to his arm, which the older brother forced a lit cigarette into. When the terrified nine-year-old said he needed the toilet, he was forced to urinate on his friend's face.

The court heard that as the attack reached its climax, the younger victim was ordered to kill himself. He repeatedly rammed a sharpened stick into his own mouth before slumping against a tree.

His older friend was left for dead after having part of a broken sink dropped on his head. He could not be interviewed by police until 10 days later due to the seriousness of his injuries.

The court also heard details of a strikingly similar attack carried out by the brothers on a choirboy in Edlington a week earlier.

The court was told how he too was lured to the patch of wasteland, this time with the promise of seeing a "massive toad", and how he was beaten and stamped on. The brothers have pleaded guilty to a charge of assault causing actual bodily harm.

On that occasion their 11-year-old victim was apparently saved from an even worse fate by the intervention of a passer-by. The brothers were identified a few days later and were due to attend a police station on the morning of Saturday, April 3.

Instead, they fled their foster home, and within an hour had begun their second savage attack. The pair are due to be sentenced tomorrow.

The hearing continues."

For most parents the details of case of the depravity is beyond belief.

OP posts:
Jimmychasesducks · 21/01/2010 22:48

chegirlsgotheartburn no of course not, but as you can see you do get people who try to stop any one having a different opinion from them and that happens often on here.
you wrote a very good post.

hbfac · 21/01/2010 22:49

I agree. (re. letting people express their sentiments/opinions - within reasonable bounds.)

one horrible dimension of this, and things like it, is how it involves so many of us, but leaves us powerless.

It brings up strong emotions, but without any immediate way of doing anything about it.

I know I'm here on this thread to try and work my way through it - I'm guessing that's why others are here.

so, you know, let's keep it civil.

Would rather there was something ACTUAL to do, though.

edam · 21/01/2010 22:53

Itsgrim - I haven't seen anyone suggesting the boys who did this should be put to death (assuming 'swing on their legs' refers to hanging).

News at Ten mentioned when the people of Edlington went out to search for the boy who was left to die, the two attackers were stood there with their father, who approached the police to say his sons had nothing to do with it. Given they were in foster care, and their father was an aggressive drunken lout, why the hell was he given access to these children? Why were they placed so near to him?

MollieO · 21/01/2010 22:55

Here is an article from the Guardian that comments on the report Newsnight obtained. Doncaster SS missed 31 opportunities over 14 years to intervene with the boys' family.

They were placed with elderly (in their 60s) foster parents three weeks before the attack.

edam · 21/01/2010 22:56

News at Ten also said the perpetrators refused to tell anyone where they had left their victim.

MollieO · 21/01/2010 23:02

I think one of the hardest things the victims' parents have to deal with is all of these assaults were predictable and 'entirely preventable', according to the report into Doncaster SS. It is bad enough to deal with something like this in the first place but to know that your child was harmed because SS failed to do their job on 31 separate occasions must be truly awful.

EightiesChick · 21/01/2010 23:09

Three things to say:

  1. No words to describe how sad and horrified I am by this, especially when I think of my own DS.

  2. Shouldn't there be a van going round Doncaster right now picking up every single child there on the at risk register? How can anyone consider any of them safe when SS have been shown to be in disarray in this way? The government should order their service to be handed over to someone else immediately.

3)Compassion can't be demanded, and especially with a case like this, people have a right to feel how they feel. I am really struggling to feel it for the perpetrators though I know they probably deserve it.

sb6699 · 21/01/2010 23:25

"compassion cant be demanded, and especially with a case like this, people have a right to feel how they feel. I am really struggling to feel for the perpetrators though I know they probably deserve it."

Exactly the way I am feeling, EightiesChick.

Logic tells me, these children must have suffered dreadful abuse to even think about attacking their victims the way they did, but I'm ashamed to admit my heart tells me "lock em up and throw away the key".

The injuries I have read about make me sick to the stomach and some of them are considered too horrific to print - those poor, poor children.

Normally, I would accept that SS find it difficult to remove children with all the restrictions in their way - but on so many occasions how could they NOT have had just cause to act.

DuelingFanjo · 21/01/2010 23:27

I do hope that the two boys who committed the attacks get all the help they need to turn their lives around. I hate that sensational reporting in the OP.

MollieO · 21/01/2010 23:28

I wonder what has happened to the other children in the family?

Sazisi · 22/01/2010 00:13

I hope the victims get all the help they need to turn their lives around, too

spookycharlotte121 · 22/01/2010 00:20

god those poor children who were attacked were 11 and 9. I hope they are able to recover and go on to lead normal lives however I have a horrible feeling that this is going to effect them for the rest of their lives.

I have first hand experiance of foster care.... have been there myself although I was there because my mum had lukimia and couldnt look after me.
Other children were there for very very different reasons. Reasons that still make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

I know lots of foster carers and their foster children and many of them have been through awful neglect and abuse. It makes you wonder what the hell is wrong with people to treat their children in such a way.
Obviously something very wrong has gone on in those childrens lives for them to react like that. Quite obvious sexual abuse and like the little girl lucy acted out what she had experianced maybe this is what the boys were doing. I know it doesnt excuse what they did to those other children.... it makes me feel sick just thinking about it but I think its important to remember that the little boys who were attacked are not the only victims.

MadamDeathstare · 22/01/2010 01:24

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

atlantis · 22/01/2010 02:16

"Doncaster SS missed 31 opportunities over 14 years to intervene with the boys' family."

Nothing new there then.

But as with the baby peter case the social workers will just shrug and ask for more pay.

TheShriekingHarpy · 22/01/2010 08:23

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ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 22/01/2010 09:24

Atlantis

fuck off

How dare you imply that social workers don't care about tragedies and just 'ask for more pay'?

Seriously - fuck off.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 22/01/2010 09:25

Of course these boys weren't born this way, Shreiking.
Or do you believe it's coincidental that they witnessed extreme domestic violence, were shown pornographic and violent films and fed vodka and cannabis?

I understand the need for justice but I feel this would be better served by locking up the boy's parents who have not only failed them catastophically, but damaged them in an irreversible way.

My own daughter is of a similar age to the attackers and whilst I am at a loss to imagine how she could ever have such violence and malice in her heart, I must acknowledge that she would have become an entirely different child had she had the misfortune to be born to the parents of the attackers

Great posts btw, chegirl.

FuriousGeorge · 22/01/2010 09:39

MadamDeathStare,I was reading a book a little while back,which asserted that one of the boys involved [don't know if it was Venables or Thompson],had responded very well to treatment and the psychiatrists were very pleased with his progress.Sadly,the other boy wasn't doing quite so well.

TheShriekingHarpy · 22/01/2010 09:50

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Message withdrawn

BigMomma3 · 22/01/2010 10:01

Well of course people will say these boys should be rehabilitated but I really cannot immagine that anybody who commits acts like these (expecially as a child) can be! Can we take the risk when the safety of society should be more important than their 'rights'?

Can you really change someone into a decent human being contributing to society when they have such hatred, violence and lack of empathy to a fellow human being's pain at such a young age??

I thought the same with the James Bulger killers and that case was even worse than this. These kids are so fucked up that they can never be changed so should be either put out of their misery of institualised for life. Why should other innocent people/children potentially suffer for their sakes.

It is stated that their mother could not control her 7 sons and the father is an alcoholic. How do we know things were any worse than this? Lots of kids grow up in households like this and do not commit violent acts against others. Lots of kids watch violent movies at a young age and don't copy it. Can the people who are blaming the parents/social workers and society in general explain why that is (don't get me wrong the parents are accountable and obviously the social workers messed up but they did not strike any blows)? Any really terrible abuse they may have suffered is all hearsay. I am more concerned at the terrible abuse those innocent vicims suffered.

Maybe those boys WERE born like that? I have read research to suggest that this can happen. We are NOT all born perfect. I can see the difference in personality in my twins who have been treated exactly the same since the day they were born and I always believed babies were a blank canvas at birth. Anyway even as 'children', 11 is definitely an age where you are able to make a choice between right and wrong.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 22/01/2010 10:07

Wrt the possibility that the parents may have also suffered abuse- I did consider that point after I posted and concluded that the line should be drawn when adulthood is reached.
Of course I agree that reasons and excuses can be used to defend perpetrators of most crimes, but the fact remains that these boys are still children and should not therefore bear the full burden of responsibility.

I cannot accept that there is even a small possibility that these children were born this way.
And I also think that your use of the phrase 'ineffectual' wrt the parenting of these boys minimises the scale of the abuse they have suffered.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 22/01/2010 10:07

yes a few people are born that way with - but it's very very rare, and the likelihood of 2 children from the same family being born with Anti social personality disorder must be absolutely miniscule.

From what I've read it was more than

"It is stated that their mother could not control her 7 sons and the father is an alcoholic. How do we know things were any worse than this?"

BigMomma3 · 22/01/2010 10:17

Sorry but how would you feel about these kids living you when they are released (as they surely will be) as teenagers? Would you be totally at ease as they would have been 'rehabilitated' and let your young children play near them?

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 22/01/2010 10:18

Bigmomma

It has been revealed in sentencing reports that the boys parents were alcoholic drug users and that the boys witnessed domestic violence including their father threatening their mother with knives. They were given cannabis and vodka and watched pornographic and 'slasher' style horror films with their father.

In fact, the only time the boys have shown any emotion in court was whilst details of their home life were revealed, and court had to be adjourned as the youngest child sobbed.

When all the contributary factors are considered I fail to understand how you could continue to argue that the boys were simply 'born bad'.

Angeliz · 22/01/2010 10:18

omg, those poor poor boys, my heart breaks for them. For the families in court listening to the deatils and seeing actual footage it must be torture

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