Bring back the death penalty?

[atlantis]

An interesting article here has an interesting arguement.

What do you think?

I agree that the death penalty is wrong. If the criminal justice system was more reliable then perhaps it would be the answer for the worst offenders but in america it seems to only apply to the poor.

I find it wierd that prisoners on death row are subjected to suicide watch so that they don't "cheat the hangman" and the methods they use to kill people are just barbaric.

In this country the prisons are full of young men with learning difficulties or mental health issues. Is that because these people are easier for the police to catch and for the lawyers to prosecute? Or do they just have a greater tendancy towards lax morals and a propensity to violence?

" but in america it seems to only apply to the poor. "

I don't mean to sound flippant, but maybe because the rich aren't out there killing people?

I am a card carrying Liberal and feel very strongly that execution is state sanctioned murder and truly I cannot believe it keeps popping up in the news etc.

For most people, prison is a dreadful experience and for those here who are saying 'well if it's that awful why do they go back again and again' - I think you can say that because you have a good life. Imagine having a life so shit that being imprisoned was no big deal. This in itself is a sad indictment of our society where people are so marginalised and wretched that regular meals and heating become a priority over liberty.

It is easy for us all to say that no, these people should not have access to tv, pcs, etc but truthfully, these things are provided as crowd controlling methods because having to deal with this many people (mainly men) all together in a crowded place is a problem.

Even being able to debate this argument as we are infers a level of intellect and thought that sometimes repeat offenders do not have, I think they must have very limited choices, limited further by being an ex-offender when they do finally come out so I can see how they just end up back inside again.

Chain gangs and all that stuff is a popular image, popularised by none other than our favourite cousins the Americans. The Americans in lots of states have access to the death penalty, and tragically their prisons and the way they dehumanise people in the system does not improve their reoffending rates with someone life sentance prisoners preferring and opting for the death penalty rather than a lifetime in prison. God help us if we ever go down this route.

Being brutal to anyone, including prisoners, brutalises us all.

atlantis, it's not that simple. Quite apart from most prisons not looking like a game or currys showroom, it's like a drop in the ocean to suggest that removing them would fill the budget deficit.

Say a prison has 3 games consoles in its rec room. Few hundred pounds? It's not really the solution is it?

Even though it's a media-constructed image, I don't actually have a problem with a prisoner having a go on tetris of an evening anyway. I can't get my knickers in a twist about it. Good for spatial awareness too.

SOH,

sky tv on a commericial basis costs over £500 per month x the amount of prisons ( probably got it a little cheaper for bulk buy?), what's wrong with the normal 5 channels?

And these measures that people want put in place assume that all prisoners are the same. That the same measures are right for all offenders.

Take a case local to us. I'll change a couple of details but in essence it is correct.

Local GP, well educated, well liked and respected. Horrific accident, wife and three children killed instantly. Unconscious at first, comes round to see his 4yr old dd's decapitated head in front of him on the bonnet.

Mental breakdown, attempted suicide, loses house and job, resorts to soft drugs, resorts to harder drugs. No money so petty crime to fund the habit. In too deep, involved with the wrong people, commits bigger crime, eventual imprisonment. Comes out, attempts suicide again, slips back into cycle of crime and heroin, back inside.

Now, you can't base a justice system on an individual any more than you can base it on a homogenous mass. But what is clear to me that in this case it is counselling, support, empathy, careful care and nurturing that is needed.

It's an extreme case, yes, but highlights that what looks like a heroin addicted petty criminal with several re-offences, is actually a broken man who needs help. The system, largely, is not geared to help this man.

And the disgusting, bitter, horrid irony? He would want the death penalty back, but just for him. He can't do it himself you see.

If were going to lock people up in prison then lets make them productive, show them what a days work is.

In the 'old' days they made number plates and sacking, i'm sure we could give them something to do.. make tents and blankets for poor countries or disaster relief, make toys for third world countries, something apart from paying them to go to the gym.

"that in this case it is counselling, support, empathy, careful care and nurturing that is needed."

Quite obviously he should not be in prison but in a mental health facility.

I think we all agree the system is wrong, but letting it continue the way it is is just rediculous, it's not helping society and it certainly isn't helping the individuals you choose to champion.

tartyhighheels

Rehabilitation is not the be-all and end-all of the purpose of prison. We should never be brutal but there is no need to be kind either. To me, simply keeping dangerous criminals away from mainstream society is very important achievement of prison too.

As for Sky TV, it's symbolic more than anything else. It won't save a lot of money, but a lot of ordinary families can't afford Sky, and make do with the terrestrial channels. Why should prisoners get special treatment?

Rehabilitation for non-life prisoners should be taken more seriously though.

There is a really good idea, I think supported by both Lib Dems and Conservatives, to pay prison governors depending on the rate of reoffending a few years after criminals leave their prisons.

If their own salary depends on effective rehabilitation, prison governors might take it more seriously!

I am with showofhands on this and atlantis, while I take your point, I think the ideas you are coming up with are really things that make us on the outside feel a bit better that those inside are 'doing something'. Showofhands is absolutely right, there just isn't the funding to rehabilitate these people and truthfully, all the education in the world is quickly stamped out by returning to the wretched shithole of a life they came from in the first place.

This is a societal issue really, not a law and order one per se. We really need to look at the whole picture to try to find where we are going wrong, why things are breaking down to the extent that we have a whole section of society that has little or no regard for itself or others around them.

Even though it is difficult we cannot look at prisoners as a homogenous blob, it has to be done on a case by case basis because you never know why someone is where they are.

"In the 'old' days they made number plates and sacking, i'm sure we could give them something to do.. make tents and blankets for poor countries or disaster relief, make toys for third world countries, something apart from paying them to go to the gym."

Do you know how cramped prisons are? Are you assuming if we remove the playstations they will have room for looms and workshops and lathes and of course that would have no effect whatsoever on industry in this country? And will provide people with lots of life skills and opportunities when they leave?

If you think that it's as simple as sitting around watching tv, playing games and messing about in the gym, you've no grasp of even the simple facts of English prisons.

And yes, you know that the man I described should have been in a psychiatric hospital because you understand the background to his situation as I told it. But the police, the prisons etc didn't know this for the longest time. He was just a heroin-addicted criminal without the wherewithal to explain how he ended up there. Happily, it was counselling in prison that revealed the true situation and support before leaving that helped him get his life back on track.

I agree with bringing the death penalty back for certain crimes. But only where the evidence is irrefutable and the crimes horrific i.e. the moors murders.

And prison is far too easy. My friends brother has been to prison. He loved it there. He tried everything he could to get back in. But after many repeat arrests, was told they would not lock him up again, because the prisons were full. There was no where to put him. All he wanted was hot meals, a place to sleep and help with his addictions. The only place he could get this help was prison . That imo is not a civilised society.

Maybe if we spent less money on keeping people like Ian Bradey alive, less money on Sky TV and PS3 for prisoners (my friend had his own TV in his room), less money on locking up debtors for failure to pay council tax etc, there would be more money available to help people like my friend. Without them having to commit crimes.

Don't know about all the stuff mentioned - but I do know that staff and budget shortages mean that sometimes prisoners spend 23 hours a day in their cell. And most don't have TV/DVD etc. Not exactly hotel conditions.

Plus, it's apparently very cold in our local prison.

I think the other big problem (other than the lack of true rehab and post-prison support) is drugs. Dad firmly believes prison should offer physical rehab. Many of the men are given methadone while in prison, so fall straight back into their habit when they get out. If they went through rehab as part of their sentence, they'd be less likely to re-offend.

Again, it would cost more in the short-term but should lower the number of repeat offenders and the number of violent crimes.

Problem is, lots of the prisoners manage to get their hands on drugs on the inside anyway. How you stop that, I have no idea. Security is pretty stringent but it doesn't seem to help.

Surely rehab is the end game for prisoners??? Of course there is keeping them out of society/depriving them of their liberty but rehab is the most important aspect because it prevents reoffending and that's good for all society.

To be honest I couldn't give a shit how many channels they have, the fact that people make this so important says a lot about their lives. When did having Sky become something we aspire to? Wow....

Like I said, the entertainment stuff is about crowd control, not about being kind. Tv et al stupifies people, that is why they have it.

Fleecy

I think access to drugs and mobile phones are two of the biggest problems with prisons.

Hard to solve though.

"Do you know how cramped prisons are? "

Which is why we should have been building more prisons, which is a seperate arguement.

"But the police, the prisons etc didn't know this for the longest time."

Then I wonder what his solicitor was doing by not giving him the best defence possible.
Yet another problem of our society and again a seperate arguement.

"you've no grasp of even the simple facts of English prisons."

But I don't need to have, as a society we do not need to spend time in prison to have an understanding of the fact that a prison should be a place of punishment, loss of liberty for the time your there, loss of all the good things you would have on the outside, not just freedom, but everything.
No tv. No games (except ball games). No payment for learning. No payment for gyms. No special treatment (alternative menus etc). You should be up at the crack of dawn and working for your meals, even if it's in your own cell, you don't work, you don't eat.

No tv. No games (except ball games). No payment for learning. No payment for gyms. No special treatment (alternative menus etc). You should be up at the crack of dawn and working for your meals, even if it's in your own cell, you don't work, you don't eat.

Crikey atlantis, do you read the Daily Mail. Think about how this would logistically work. No alternative menus???? It is not Macdonalds. How do you deal with religious and medical diets in your ideal prison. I think if you are going to comment on how a prison should be run in this sort of detail then you should know what they are like inside because having a theory about what should happen to make you feel better may not bear any relation whatsoever to the reality of the situation. Think of the extra staff needed to implement this kind of thing, the extra security too (using tools and all that) - how does that help the deficit.

Showofhands has made this point time and time again becuase she has seen it first hand and understands how it could or could not work in reality.

tartyhighheels - the poorest parts of society that may or may not end up in prison....wanting to have a decent telly or a PS3 etc is a large part of it. You can go into the poorest of households and they have nothing.....except a 42" LCD proudly stuck onto the wall.

Some people see it as embarrassing not to have these things.

What people aspire to is all relative. For some people, tv is stupefying, for others, it's entertainment.

Anything bad you do to prisoners comes up against us not wanting to be the kind of people to do that. You can't purposely overcrowd them, give them shit food, beat them or any of that.

But if you make it comfortable and they are mixing with the same crowd as they did outside, taking the same drugs etc that's no help either.

How about this. Give each prisoner a clean comfortable cell with a shower. Maybe even a built in TV (educational channels only) but don't let them out of it at all during the sentence. Feed them decent food, but through a slot in the door.

Solitary confinement can be harsh over a long period, but the sentence could then be very much shorter and they wouldn't be learning new tricks from other prisoners, fighting or taking drugs.

Perhaps the 2nd part of their sentence could be the rehabilitation stuff, but only if they were perfectly behaved.

a) the Justice system isn't perfect (in the least!) so innocents will be executed.

b) it is wrong to kill people

c) it is an incredibly slippery slope to start judging the monetary worth of a person's life. The logical extension of such arguments is the execution of severely disabled etc.

d) the death penalty has never been an effective deterrent, look at the US murder statistics, vs Norwegians who have a very different approach to treating their criminals (about 3 mins in they got to a Norwegian prison).

Squeezy.. My point is, entertainment in institutions is provided as distraction and crowd control.

Personally, I think TV can be entertaining of course but what a sad thing when we aspire to having a big tv or a good package from Sky rather than travelling or educating ourselves. That is the rampant snob in me talking of course.

I just think getting hot under the collar about what sort of TV prisoners are watching is a bit daft. They have to provide something calming for people locked up for so much of the day otherwise incidents of violence etc are bound to increase with the levels of boredom and frustration.

Showofhands, what do you think about the TV and stuff in prison. Why do you think it is provided??

I have a couple of friends who work with underprivileged children whose parents are in prison, addicted to drugs, negligent etc. Some of the stories are hellish, where a pat on the back would be given to your son for managing to pull the wool over the eyes of the tv license inspector coming to the door....What chance have they got?

There was a documentary on a while ago about a womens prison.....one of the females was from the area a friend of mine works in......when the girl got out of prison, she was the local celebrity and glorified in the community.

Very sad.

Anyway, I am going off subject...

"Anyway, I am going off subject... "

I think it's all part and parcel of the subject.

Just as ASBO's are a 'badge of honour' for some so is a prison sentence, it's just one of the things that's wrong with society but it all leads to the shocking end result that we are a broken society and we do need fixing, but that can not be done with lax laws and pitiful sentences, not to mention a cushy ride when your inside.

You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs and those 'eggs' need to be paraded (methaphorically) speaking in the streets to deter others.

We are already 'americanised' with children shooting each other on the streets and knife crime escalating, so what do we do? Continue to give slapped wrists and send them out to kill more innocents or get tough.

I understand people may not want the death penalty but justice in this country is pitiful and really does need to be addressed, we've had 12 years where criminals laugh at their sentences we need to give them a 'shock and awe' treatment, bringing back the death penalty? Maybe, maybe not, but sentences and prisons that would make any lag stop and think might just do the trick.

Sorry, had to interact with my child for a while.

Why do I think they provide TV and stuff in prison? Oh for myriad reasons. It's firstly important to remember that many of the people with access to television are on earned privilege schemes or are considered enhanced level prisoners. It's not automatically meted out to everybody, you can lose it as a privilege, just as you can earn it which is a very important part of rehabilitation. The television is not a reward for being in prison but recognition of behaviour whilst in prison. You are right that with huge numbers of people in prison something like television, music, media in general is a cheap (yes it is), easy to implement and effective form of stupefication, for want of a better word. Harbouring boredom and unrest would be utterly counterproductive, you are absolutely correct.

And prison I think needs to have a normal framework. It does need to have normal outside tropes such as television and access to newspapers because it's a part of society, it's a journey to rehabilitation and path to living more effectively within that society, it is not meant to be that far removed from C21st living that it affords institutionalisation.

And I truly believe that it is not a negative thing. It doesn't make people more likely to re-offend, it doesn't make people crave imprisonment, it serves a very useful purpose in many ways. It is not what is in prison than drives people to re-offend but what is in their lives afterwards.

I stand firm that with this as with everything, you do need to understand what you are talking about before you wax lyrical. Because the reality of prisons is very far removed from the media representation of them. It is alright to want change and be disappointed with the justice system but to make sweeping comments about basic food only (what of health and religion and allergies and basic human rights?) and working for food, but you cannot understand the reality of only 30 minutes of sunshine a day, not being able to wear your own clothes, seeing your loved ones under supervision for only minutes a month, loneliness, cold, depression.