'snatched' by social workers

[DuelingFanjo]

oh ffs

I know it's the Daily Mail but Social workers don't snatch children!

She looks good for 48 mind!

Just as we were starting to have a reasonable conversation...

Starlight. To answer your question I was using a crude example of a potential scenario to demonstrate that social workers (in conjunction with others) have to make decisions where all possible outcomes may have a negative impact.

The scenario was more about my area in mental health. I make applications under the Mental Health Act to detain people in hospital against their will.

I have a duty to liaise with all involved people and to seek 'the least restrictive alternative. The decision to 'section' someone is generally taken by someone like myself and 2 independent doctors. I'm required to write a detailed report outlining why we took this action and people can appeal against their detention to an Independent Tribunal. If I get anything wrong I can be taken to court and sued as an individual.

The decision making processes in social work are largely made with the context of multi agency/multi disciplinary working. This doesn't fit in with the assertion that social workers are making drastic decisions unilaterally.

Grand and NN, no one said that children didn't need to be taken away. No one said that.
NN said, posters are saying that :
"that action should not be taken to protect children. "
which poster said that then ?
You are putting words in our mouths and making out that we are saying stuff that we are not actually saying.

And yes, I have also read the JH judgement.
I thought it was not good of them to call them evil. I also thought he did have a point.
There. commented upon.

Dittany, x-post, my last remark was not aimed at you.
I'm not commenting on the Haringey whistle blower case, as I no longer work in that field, so I do not feel in my professional role that I know enough about the case to comment. I have said all along, bad practice exists, and should be investigated, and believe me, most Social Workers have strong opinions on the faults within the system. Its why I left Children and Families work.

I have not contradicted myself. Social Workers do not have the power to summarily remove children. That power exists, but is not in the hands of a Social Worker. It belongs to the police or a magistrate (in England)

Yes I have read the judgment. Why did you comment, 'thought not?'

it's a judicial opinion.

Dittany, I often come on MN to post my own opinion, but I think that when you identify yourself as a member of a profession,which I normally don't, you are representing that profession and make sure that to the best of your ability, you know what you are talking about. And the recent developements in Child protection are not something I have looked at in depth, as I am busy keeping up with developments in my own field. So I feel a little uncomfortable pronouncing, as a Social Worker, my views on something I only know through the media. But here goes...

Ok, Social Work hat off. I am horrified by how she was treated, horrified that nothing was done to act on the concerns raised, horrified that the system was in such a mess, and not particularly surprised. It does not surprise me that management engage in an arse covering excersise, whilst hanging a front line worker out to dry, nor that the best interests of the child is not always the top priority, the higher up you go. But (hat back on) this is only my opinion, and I do not have all the facts.

need to make sure

come on Grand. don't try and blame the courts.
Ss apply to the court. the order is then granted or denied by the court.
And then SS act.

It is social services who do it. we shouldn't be discussing this, surely. it is obvious. most posters knew, even before this thread, I did, that it is not down to one sw making a decision. Give us more credit than that, please.

I have dealt with the issue of LJs Wall and Thorpe's judgment at some length.

I do think that putting some children in care - remember that the act of putting a child in care is traumatic to the child - merely because someone is upset with what the grandmother said is indeed "evil". It is a form of abuse of power which causes children (and their family) to suffer.

I accept entirely that I have not proven that the motivation is vindictive or indeed that what I was told could have been wrong. However, there are many reports of vindictive acts and it is quite clear that being submissive to the system tends to get it to leave someone alone.

There are cases like the East Sussex case where there is no evidence that children have been harmed by their parents or indeed neglected, but they have been removed because the parents are stroppy. I do not think that this is right. I do not think the description of "evil" is inappropriate.

The rules in Scotland are very different to England. There are problems in Scotland (eg Kerry and Mark Robertson who now intend to marry having left the UK). However, Scotland is a lot better than England.

Dittany, you have totally misrepresented me. I am not circling the wagons in the slightest. I have not, as far as I can see, called you or any critisisms unreasonable. Of course its not unreasonable to be concerned about child protection. I have said, repeatedly, that bad practice exists, needs investigated, and that the system is a mess. I left the field as a result of my frustration. I do not seek to defend bad practice, nor have I ever stated so in this or any thread.

My reluctance to voice my personal opinion in the context of a thread where I have stated my profession, is that I don't know enough about that particular subject to hold an objective view. I do hold a personal view, and have explained it. If we were discussing my field of work, I would have no qualms about voicing a simmilar opinion, as I would know what I was talking about.

Let me put it this way. I, Grandhighpoohba have an opinion. But it is not a professional opinion, it is my own. I have many professional opinions, and will happily discuss them with you, but they are not particularly relevant to this thread.

What I find disheartening, is the level of ire that gets thrown at frontline workers, by the media, by management, by some posters here. The system is broken, and needs fixed.

It would be nice also, if some posters didn't lump all Social Workers who are on this thread into one basket. I don't agree with everythig NN says, for example, and certainly don't like how she expresses it.

I don't think people are lumping all SWs together Grand. People have said a lot that most SWs do a very difficult job and do their best. But no matter how often it is said, I think every single SW here has expressed the feeling that posters here are 'anti-SW' 'SW bashing' etc. I don't really know how to get around that. I think people on the whole have been very careful to distinguish between the majority of SWs that are good and the minority that do damaging things.

I think it is very important and reassuring that the vast majority of SWs on this thread have argued their points calmly and reasonably.One has made a spectacularly bad impression though and I think it has made a lot of people worried.

Oblomov, now you are putting words in my mouth. I do not "blame" the Court, I was seeking to show that the descision does not rest in one person's judgement, but is ultimately held by the Court.

Interesting choice of words though. "Blame." It makes it sound like a Social Worker is at fault for removing a child, they are to blame.

dittany,I think everyone has the right to comment about social work practice and that legitimate criticisms need to be addressed.

However I do think that there is a lot of mythology surrounding social work that perhaps as a social worker I feel the need to comment on.

I think its faintly ridiculous to suggest that everyone has equal knowledge and experience. However when this knowledge/experience is used to try and inform others you say that we are being dismissive and undermining of others arguments.

jh, re: the case where the children were taken into care due to the grandmother calling the social worker fat.

What were the 'official' i.e Court sanctioned reasons for care proceedings? I'd be really interested to know.

Also re: the East Sussex cases I thought that there had to be evidence that the children were at risk of significant harm prior to care proceedings yet you are saying there wasn't? If children are being taken into care due to 'stroppy' parents then I agree social workers are evil.

Problem is that I just don't think you can evidence it jh. But I'm happy for you to prove me wrong.

The problem with evidencing these cases is the rules of contempt of court. This means that until you get out of the lower courts people don't have access to the proceedings. The Court of Appeal is in public with reporting restrictions on identity.

However, there is now to be an enquiry from the council of Europe. That will be an environment in which I can evidence all of these cases.

The "fat" case was in court on Friday and we haven't got the details of what has been happening. It might be one of those where the parents' solicitors bully them into not contesting the local authority's application.

They contacted my office too late to do much last week. However, we can get involved from now onwards.

pofacedandproud

"I don't think people are lumping all SWs together Grand. People have said a lot that most SWs do a very difficult job and do their best. But no matter how often it is said, I think every single SW here has expressed the feeling that posters here are 'anti-SW' 'SW bashing' etc. I don't really know how to get around that. I think people on the whole have been very careful to distinguish between the majority of SWs that are good and the minority that do damaging things.

I think it is very important and reassuring that the vast majority of SWs on this thread have argued their points calmly and reasonably.One has made a spectacularly bad impression though and I think it has made a lot of people worried"

That particular poster worries me too, and I would be concerned if any SW didn't agree. This is something I have actually said on a different thread.

If every social worker on this thread has felt got at, does that not suggest that to a certain extent, we are. People here keep saying that most social workers are good, but then seem determined to read the worst into what we do or do not say, and say that it is indicitive of the whole profession. So, I'm bowing out, I get enough confict at work. It is a shame, as before NN returned,and the tone changed, it was an interesting discussion.

yes agree about the tone Grand. It is a very difficult subject.