Swiss vote to ban minarets in referendum

[mateykatie]

Switzerland has voted to ban the construction of mosque minarets in a national referendum. 57% supported the ban.

Here is the BBC story.

Women voted for the ban more than men according to the Times.

This seems pretty horrible to me. I always thought the Swiss were tolerant but obviously not.

londonlottie - Don't be "more tolerant than Muslim countries", if that is too much. Just be as tolerant as the Muslim countries that tolerate other faiths (yes, they do exist).

There are quite a few churches and synagogues in Turkey, for example, and nobody has tried to change their appearances through legislation.

I'm not saying Swiss were right or wrong, but let's not use prejudices about "Muslim countries" as an argument.

alexpoli - "Freedom of worship" has little to do with "freedom to leave Islam". Quran is very clear that the latter is not to be tolerated among Muslims.

Freedom of worship is about whether people of other faiths can freely practice their religion in a given country.

'In which Muslim countries is there an unfettered freedom of worship, church building, etc. for non-Muslims?'

Turkey, to name one. I'm not that familiar with other Muslim countries.

Cote - I think your point about freedom to worship is debatable and not clear cut. Quite apart from the repugnant idea of the state authorities persecuting people for leaving their religion (surely they should leave it up to Allah?), even philosophically speaking it is a complex issue. For example, if a Muslim converts to Christianity, should he not then be considered a Christian and be given freedom to worship as such? Or should he be considered as merely an apostate from Islam?

With regards to Turkey, I do wonder sometimes if this will change now that Erdogan's party is takeing more and more control and uprooting the military establishment.

Also, I notice that Turkey's tolerance does not extend to the Halki theological seminary.

Hmm, well I think it is fair to say that Turkey has a large and growing Islamic fundamentalist movement that would very much like the existing govt to change and in those circumstances religious tolerance would not be as good as it is now, plenty of people in Turkey would probably like churches to be banned. [the Ottoman Empire though was a very impressive model of religious tolerance] I think it is entirely wrong that the Swiss want to ban Minarets, but I do think Muslims have to be a little bit aware of the consensus in Muslim countries in general, where Christianity and Christians have a very difficult time or are banned completely, before being so outraged, as it does come across as a little bit hypocritical.

Drayford yes you are a bit because you didn't read it properly. I didn't make a point. I 'agreed' with ZephirineDrouhin's point - laughing at the unspoken implications.

Riven - the trouble with religious texts is that they tend not to be clear and leave a lot open to interpretation. Besides mentioning no compulsion, does the Qu'ran not also say "if anyone follows a religion other than Islam, never shall it be accepted of him".

I am sure that authorities in non-tolerant Muslim countries could give you plenty of Qu'ranic justification for their actions. It's all down to interpretation.

If I were a Muslim, I'd be pretty sick of these people Same guys who heckled our local regiment during a parade, telling them they weren't 'allowed' to walk through Muslim areas. As if extremists own parts of Britain. Fuckers.

I saw some of these soldiers collecting for charity in my town - including men who had been injured in Afghanistan.

Btw, Turkey is a bit of a special case because Kemal Ataturk deliberately created the modern country as a secular state. IIRC he banned any public display of religious symbols such as the Islamic headscarf. Not sure there is another comparable country with a majority Muslim population.

You could be right there, Riven.

Do you think it's partly the Saudis exporting their version of intolerant Islam around the world that's the problem? Gather the famous Egyptian university is trying to counter that. No idea whether this is A Good Thing, given I'm not Muslim myself.

I think though that Christianity was so brutal at that time because human society was, not vice versa. Society is, as you say, still very brutal in some areas, at least governments and political decisions are [I'm thinking invasions, wars, and the loss of so many young lives] but in other areas human rights and liberties are better than they have ever been. Of course there are loads of stupid/mad Christians who want to curtail people's liberties and human rights, but luckily government policy generally ignores those people. The problem is some Muslim countries is that there is no division between religion and state.

I'm sure you are right about that Riven.

Onagar, "unspoken implications"? What do you mean by this?

Officially, Turkey is actually a secular country. For example, men in the army are not allowed to grow beards, women are not allowed to wear headscarves at university etc. etc. so, although the majority of the population is Muslim, the country itself is secular. TurkeyHence, it does tolerate other faiths under its constitution. A "Muslim" country is somewhere like Pakistan, which has its consitution, laws etc. based on Sharia (it's full name is the Islamic Republic of Iran).

Turkey is great or has been great since Kemal Ataturk came on the scene. But there is a growing Islamic fundamentalist movement.

edam;

thank you for that link....

they are the reason for the rise of the BNP....

the BNP would kick them out of this country withing 2 minutes of getting into power....and who would blame them.

"I imagine the BNP couldn't. Because I'm guessing they were born here. Which makes them British."

The BNP, well two relatively senior members of it, seem to believe that Ashely Cole wasn't born here.

Expecting any kind of sense from them on what "British" is or on sending people "home" is clearly out of the question.

There was an interesting article yesterday in the Times about Abu Dhabi wanting to become the power in the Middle East, and that they've essentially let Dubai go under, as it was behaving in a very "unIslamic" fashion. Will be interesting to see how and if power shifts in the region on the back of this current crisis.

Barones,it's way back but you were very articulate.

perfect example then of certain muslims refusing to except the British way of life....even though they were born here..

and i imagin the BNP wold do what they bloody well liked....