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Original poster

Teenage girls should be prepared not to expect it all

259 replies

BecauseImWorthIt · 14/11/2009 20:07

here

This has made me really angry.

Where is the education for boys? Why are our future citizens (female only) being told that babies/childcare are their responsibility only, whereas their male counterparts can, clearly, expect to have it all?

OP posts:
Sakura · 16/11/2009 06:37

I think its about time girls had more realistic expectations tbh. What a shock it was for me when I realised there was no way I could leave my baby with anyone, because the biological need to stay with her was too strong.

My mother had a career and fully expected me to have one too. While I do admire her to a certain extent I can't begin to describe the cost of her career on our family life, not to mention her relationship with us. She literally drew energy out of the family; it was as if we children (especially me, the eldest) had to be emotionally self-sufficient so that she could focus on her work. We were not allowed to be needy. She is an extreme example, but I thought that in order to be something, a woman had to work, otherwise she was a failure and was letting down the side.

But the fact I am more of a lentil-weaver artistic type, and had to bury these tendencies and aim high for a career, meant I already felt like a failure from the beginning for not really being as "driven". I think testosterone and drive are related, so it makes sense that some women like me are less one-track minded.

I will encourage my daughter to get the best education she can, and follow any career path she chooses, but I will warn her that all her priorities may change if she has children, and her entire world view may change too. I was never told of the huge impact having children has on a woman's psyche, how petty "working on a career" seemed to me after having a child. I just wish there had been another model for me to have seen rather than the have-it-all superwoman. I will tell my daughter that if she wants to go in the superwomen direction, I will be in awe of her, but that she would also not be failure if she wanted more of a work-life balance by going part-time.

Fivesetsofschoolfees · 16/11/2009 06:47

I have just had a look at Twitter, and Mumsnet towers have this as their latest tweet: Teenage girls are told 'not to expect much' when it comes to careers and motherhood

That's not what the article says at all.

Why is Mumsnet stirring this particular pot? It just leads fuels the paradigm, needlessly.

Original poster
BecauseImWorthIt · 16/11/2009 08:35

I'm not quite getting you, Five.

This isn't about whinging or expecting Government to legislate anything. My OP was a direct and personal response to the speech being given to teenage girls.

Yes, we can all try to grab equality. And there are obviously several of us on this thread alone who do, largely, share the 'burden' of childcare.

But the fact is that for many women, this simply doesn't happen. That, of course, is the point of the speech that is being made - to prepare for the fact that we can't have it all.

My point all along is not to deny that this is the truth, but to ask why boys aren't being drawn into the whole thing, and why the assumption that women will be the ones to sacrifice their ambitions is still being perpetuated?

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 16/11/2009 08:41

All you posters who are getting het up about the speaker in the article talking about women's needs and omitting to talk about men - the audience here was female.

Calm down!

Original poster
BecauseImWorthIt · 16/11/2009 08:44

I started the OP saying I was angry, Bonsoir.

Do you not think this is an issue to be concerned about?

The fact that the audience was entirely female is neither here nor there. The speech was released to the press, therefore the message goes much further than those few girls at the school.

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 16/11/2009 08:46

I thought the article was great.

I am also aware the speech to which it refers was addressed to a female audience. The fact that it was released to a general audience for commentary is neither here or there as to its content and whether the original speech should be discussing men and their role or not.

OrmIrian · 16/11/2009 09:11

"if you want complete equality then fathers would have to work part-time..or not at all...

totally unfeasible"

Erm...why?

Bonsoir · 16/11/2009 09:14

Who wants "complete equality"?

I'm a woman, I like being a woman and doing womanly things...

daftpunk · 16/11/2009 09:46

why...?

i don't think men would want to...

men are not by nature really into caring for children....that's why they don't work in childcare....very few male primary school teachers or nurses...it's not really their "thing"....something to do with that stuff they're full of...begins with T...

it makes them want to join the army and possibly die for their country....i know women are in the army....but not many.

men and women are different.....i like that.

men are good with their dc anyway...my father would read to me at night and spend all weekend with us.....and that was 30 years ago....not really sure what more you expect men to do..? they have to work.

women need to realize when they have children they become the main carer.....if they can't except that they shouldn't have children.....they don't have to have them.

Original poster
BecauseImWorthIt · 16/11/2009 09:47

Have I suddenly strayed into 1909?

OP posts:
noddyholder · 16/11/2009 09:50

What are womanly things? I think telling this to yong women at this age is damaging.As a teenager I assumed I could have it all and that gives yo a wonderful sense of adventure and anticipation for adulthood.The realisation that some things have to give and compromises made come gradually as you get older and are ready for life's realities. We are all differnebt but I know many SAHDs who do a brilliant job and also LOVE it!

agingoth · 16/11/2009 09:52

How ghastly that we expect teenage girls to 'lower their expectations'.

If I had dds I would hate to have to give them that negative, punishing sort of message.

As it is I have ds's. I will be teaching them that if they have children THEY should expect to adjust THEIR expectations, not rush back to the bloody office leaving wifie to do 'motherly things'.

btw, can't believe the sort of biological determinism being touted on this thread. I didn't feel a 'biological urge' to be with ds1 permanently when ds1 was born, in fact if anything I felt an overpowering urge to go back to work and DO SOMETHING with my brain. I now have a charming, warm and seemingly undamaged 6 year old who is doing great at school and who appears to love me as much as I love him.

Just because YOU may have revised all your expectatiosn when you had kids doesn't mean all women 'naturally' do or that girls should have to!!

Bonsoir · 16/11/2009 09:59

Personally I think that the negative, punishing message is the one that tells girls that unless they are doing it all, they are failures.

SolidGoldBangers · 16/11/2009 10:02

I think probably the most important thing to tell teenage girls is that motherhood is not, actually, compulsory. And that they should think carefully about whether they actually want to have children rather than falling for the bullshit that they are freaks and failures if they are not very interested in parenthood. Ditto couplehood. Because women are still expected to see themselves in relation to other people in a way that men are not: childfree single women, no matter how happy they actually are doing jobs they love or pursuing other time-consuming interests, are continually pestered and pitied about the fact that they do not have partners or children, while many other women who do have partners and children may find that their lives are nonstop drudgery and they are not happy at all yet can't say so because that would make them 'selfish'.

agingoth · 16/11/2009 10:03

That is absolutely not what I am saying. I am saying that to try to proscribe their choices and make them feel that they should basically expect nothing from their partners and expect to do it all as mothers is shocking in this day and age.

Especially when with economics being as they are more and more women with children will have to work in future just to put a roof over their kids heads.

agingoth · 16/11/2009 10:06

Also, more and more women end up ALONE with kids and that looks set to increase.

One thing I would be teaching dds if I had any is that marriage and motherhood are not the lifetime vocation they once were- if indeed they ever really were. (I am of course a living example of that as am going through a divorce right now, and thank god I've kept working as at least I have some chance of a pension later on...)

daftpunk · 16/11/2009 10:09

1909...?

men are still dying in wars as we speak biwi....

women have good jobs....we are equal in most things... but when a woman has a baby she has to look after it.....there is nothing wrong with that...

go back to your wonderful career when your child has at least learnt to walk...and if you can't sacrifice a few years out of you so busy and successful life ...don't have children...

stop moaning about men...

agingoth · 16/11/2009 10:11

'go back to your wonderful career when your child has at least learnt to walk...and if you can't sacrifice a few years out of you so busy and successful life ...don't have children...'

exactly, that is what I will be advising my SONS to do, daftpunk!

I happen to be very fond of several men, including them. And I think it's bollocks that 'we' are 'better' at childcare than them. My dad practically brought me up, at some cost to his career but he doesn't regret it and I know my sons wouldn't either.

OrmIrian · 16/11/2009 10:16

'womanly thing' ?

Makes me think of Emily in Little Britain

And DP I don't see why 'what men want' is any more important than what women want. Men don't want to stay at home with their kids ....so? Quite a few women don't want to do it either. Are you going to advise these men not to procreate?

OrmIrian · 16/11/2009 10:17

Who's moaning about men. I moan about the narrowness of expectations for both men and women.

daftpunk · 16/11/2009 10:20

actually....most women want to stay at home when they have children....even educated women.....i honestly don't think i could hand my baby over to anyone....i'd miss him too much, i wouldn't be able to concentrate on my job...

but maybe i'm not a real woman....never really got the hang of feminism...

i've always put my dc first...and i like doing things to make my dh happy...

i'm such a failure..

agingoth · 16/11/2009 10:21

QUITE orm.

And a lot of men DO want to have more time with kids including (gasp!) staying at home. But the entire socioeconomic structure is against them: no parental leave just maternal, ludicrous house prices in most of the country, etc.

LeninGrotto · 16/11/2009 10:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

agingoth · 16/11/2009 10:22

yeah right, you're ONLY 'putting your dc first' as a mother if you give up work.
Bollocks, frankly. And offensive bollocks to those of us who have brought up healthy, happy kids while working.

agingoth · 16/11/2009 10:23

god, my H would have run for the hills if I'd stayed home trying to 'make him happy'... and before anyone says anything, we didnt' divorce because I am a hardened career bitch who never ironed his shirts

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