all male golf club allowed by supreme court

[mayorquimby]

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1104/1224258028584.html

last week the irish supreme court ruled that portmarnock golf club was not breaching equality legislation by being a men only private members club.
was wondering what the take on it from a womens forum would be.
i'll lay my cards on the table and say i'm a man and think it's a victory for common sense.

On the subject of picking and choosing, I am not getting into it, hence

As for it being a group of white men? What on earth does that have to do with it? If it were a group of white men saying no black men except for tuesdays once a month or a group of dogs saying no cats except at meal times it would make no difference at all, either the group is in or not in, anything else is actively discriminating and is wrong.

I am not quite sure why you are so determined to make this about white men, unless your agenda is to reveal white men as the new oppressed group, in which case I would say you are going to need to put in a lot more work than this.

no that wasn't my intention as i've stated time and again i believe such rights should be upheld for all groups.
the only reason i started mentioning "white men" was because of a response referring to "priveledged white men" when as i said all along i think this is positive for all private members groups. as such i was questioning wether the people who were disagreeing and mentioning both the gender and race of this particular group where doing so because of their gender and race or wether they felt that no private members groups should be allowed to restrict membership on these grounds.

as for the point about either they should be in or not completely i can see the logic behind the point.but i don't agree with it when discussing private members clubs as i still feel that they should have control over operation and entrance policy etc. for example in my gym recently they made part of the complex a womens only weights room.now i can see and agree with the logic for it. the open weights area is pften over run by men and can see why some women might be uncomfortable usin the open area.they are of course still allowed to do so and many do. but if we were to extend the logic of either you're fully in or fully out things like this would not be allowed as we pay the same membership fees yet there are more facilities open to women members by vurtue of their gender as there is no men only weights room and they are still allowed to avail of all the weights available to men but i am not able to avail of all the exercise equipment available to women.
but i accept my clubs right to do this as a private members club and no one is forcing me to be a member of it.

Thanks for posting a range of article links MQ.

I do find the legal basis for the ruling extremely suspect - that the club could continue its membership policy because it catered for the needs of one gender. I find the minority position a lot more persuasive.

As for the rights of free association MQ - well, free association should damn well mean what it says. Not free association unless you have a vagina.

well until I read that they could play there and not actually join I was going to say I didn' have a problem with it. But letting them play and then saying "sorry can't be a member" is

"free association should damn well mean what it says. Not free association unless you have a vagina."

sorry i don't understand what you're getting at here nobody is denying womens rights to free association here. freedom of association means you can fraternise with whom you choose. so men have the right to have an exclusively male members private club if they want in the same way women have a right to do exactly the same.freedom of association doesn't mean you have a right to be accepted into any group regardless of wether they want you or not.

and while i can see the logic and persuasiveness of the dissenting judgments i ultimatey think that if they had been the majority it would have been a disappointing verdict to see implemented. because while some have been mocking the fact that i think protecting a priveledged groups right to determine their admittance policy is a good thing, the nature of the law is that it has to apply across the board in order to be fair. so if they had denied these men the right then surely they'd have to deny all private members clubs the right.

i don't have a problem with it...

i'm happy for lots of "women only" activities....

not sure if that's a friendly smile or a patronizing one....

maybe i like not knowing...

The judgment of the Irish Supreme Court. Irish law seems to be somewhat different to UK law on equality.

Most Irish judges are clearly unable to think logically or to recognise that discrimination is a bad thing (most because majority in the supreme court and the high court).

Male golfers don't have any 'need' to hang out with all the boys. While single-sex activities such as women-only swimming sessions do reflect genuine needs such as enabling Muslim women to use the swimming pool.

I hope all the women resign and set up their own ruddy golf club. And the council gives them planning permission on the grounds that golfers clearly 'need' single sex facilities.

No, very dim statement of mine re freedom of association. Withdrawn.

But the application of the law still seems wrong. Maybe the golf club should consider renaming itself the Portmarnock Men's Crisis Centre and offer ball-striking therapy, as this would be fulfilling the law's requirement that a single sex club be designed to fulfil the needs of one gender only. Unfortunately they might find a lot of people turning up whose interpretation of ball-striking therapy differed from theirs.

"While single-sex activities such as women-only swimming sessions do reflect genuine needs such as enabling Muslim women to use the swimming pool."

so the only women who should be allowed avail of this would be muslim women then? what about all female gyms which cater for non-muslims because some women feel uncomfortable exercising in front of the opposite sex/they just would prefer to exercise in a women only facility?should they be banned as they exclude men on the basis of gender?

"I hope all the women resign and set up their own ruddy golf club. And the council gives them planning permission on the grounds that golfers clearly 'need' single sex facilities"

and i'd support them to the hilt in their decision, any private members group, such as the womens council of ireland who took this case and have an exclusively female membership,should have the right to dictate their admittance policy. and fwiw the women who play at portmarnock weren't the ones who took the case most of them are happy with the set up as they knew the terms when they joined. it was a lobby group who took the case.

oh come on LG..give the men a break.....why can't they have clubs where women arn't allowed....?

they need somewhere to escape...ha ha

i really don't have a problem with it at all...and i think anyone who does probably has a few self esteem issues...

possibly...maybe..?

does the womens institute allow men..?

"Women, know your place!"

finally we agree.
kitchen & bedroom = women

golf course and boardroom = men.

oh no.....you sounded sensible untill that last post...