11 year old gives birth!!!!

[UpYourViva]

This is unbelievable this

Rhubarb, I doubt that such an old text could be used as an example of how some cultures view young girls. To be honest, we would be damned if somebody thought that we, as a society, are ok, with incest, early marriage, poligamia, and the use of girls as tokens of trade (does anybody remember Sodom and Gomorra?)

In any case, Romas are not muslims are they?

The fact that this case is in the news, at international level, means that it is very very unusual.

Again i've not read this particular article but did read it at the weekend online.
The hospital are quoted as saying that prior to this girl giving birth 12 was the younest and apparently quite common for girls of 12 and 13 having babies and marrie din this way so although yes she is younger 12/13 is not much older and highly common in the town this girl has grown up in.

I realise this is from Wikipedia but it does quote its sources:
"According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.[1][3][4] American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[3] This issue of her virginity was of great importance to early historians who supported the Abbasid Caliphate. These historians considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate over the succession to Muhammad.[3]

Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.[1][3][4][5][6][7] Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.[3] The marriage was delayed until after the Hijra, or migration to Medina, in 622; Aisha and her older sister Asma bint Abi Bakr only moved to Medina after Muhammad had already migrated there. After this, the wedding was celebrated very simply. The sources do not offer much more information about Aisha's childhood years, but mention that after the wedding, she continued to play with her toys, and that Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[8]"

I don't see how you can claim to be accurate and say that I am not when you then admit that information on this subject is still debated. That means neither of us is right or wrong.

And it is relevant today because there are still some Islamic sects that do child brides. Traditions carry over thousands of years.

The sources for the wikipedia are here:

1.^ a b c d e Watt, "Aisha", Encyclopedia of Islam Online
2.^ Amira Sonbol, Rise of Islam: 6th to 9th century, Encyclopedia of Women and Islamic Cultures
3.^ a b c d e f g D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40
4.^ a b Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157.
5.^ Barlas (2002), p.125-126
6.^ Sahih al-Bukhari 5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88, Sahih Muslim 8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, Sunnan Abu Dawud 41:4915, 41:4917
7.^ Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7
8.^ Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, Oxford University Press 1961, page 102.
9.^ a b c Goodwin, Jan. Price of Honour: Muslim Women Lift the Veil of Silence on the Islamic World. UK: Little, Brown Book Group, 1994

But I insist, the fact that it was done hundreds of years ago, can not be used as a "example of how cultures see young girls".

Actually, I could go as far as saying that it would be very sad if somebody, who only had access to the very contemporary Daily Mirror, assumed that all British teenagers are violent tugs and that we condone so many under age pregnancies.

I was refering to your post that said he was 80 years old, not the subsequent one. A I said before sourced vary as to her age when they where bethroted so I definitely cannot falt you on that.

But that particular culture, of having child brides, has changed very little over the years. Young girls are still paired up with old men by their families and they are forced to depart from their childhood way before they are ready.

They are given no say in the matter, they are mere commodities. So yes, it is still relevant. Also because Muhammed took a child bride, to some strict Islamists that provides the perfect excuse to keep the tradition going.

gorionine, you'll note that it was not a statement I made but a question "Didn't the prophet Mohammed......?"

I hadn't checked my sources and was working from memory. If that's all you can pull me on then I'm happy.

OMG!

Will be locking up my 13 year old DD, Forever!!

The girl is Roma Gypsy.Sorry to say this but this isnt something unusual in Roma culture,she might be the youngest ever but her parents are probably ok with it.The boy is from a Roma family too so the families wanted to marry them.This is just the way it is,being from easter Europe myself,i know how Roma Gypsies are treated.They are treated very badly,verbally abused and discriminated.And the goverment is not doing anything about it.This resulted in them being isolatedin their villages,many of them turning to crime because no-one will give them a job.Many of the Roma children dont go to school so therefor are uneducated about contraception,or havent got aspirations to achieve something better in life(same as the generation before),its a vicious circle.The goverment and the country failed this little girl,they arent doing enough to stop the discrimination of Roma Gypsies!

Fair comment Rhubarb, there was indeed a question mark at the end of your sentence. I understood that more like "didn't the Prophet Muhamed (PBUH) marry a girl of 6 while he was 80? " as a way of confirming he had done something wrong (which was not the case in the society he lived in). My appologies if I have misunderstood you.

I could not see the Qur'anic references about it. Would you be able to clarifie that for me as well?

This confirms that she was just a child when the marriage was consummated. I don't have time to go through the copy I have to find the relevant quotes but the link confirms what I thought I had read and inferred from the actual texts.

Here too if you think the previous link is too critical, this is a source from a Muslim scholar.

Heavy hint: microwave brownie anyone

apols for gatecrash!

lol! If only I had a microwave!

I don't see how a scriptural debate is even slightly relevant tbh.

I do think that the post about the way Romas live in Easrern Europe is very germane to the discussion. It is a little like the situation in this country of young teenagers seeing little else out there for themselves beyond motherhood and life on welfare. Our government and wider society need to get to grips with that as an issue, just as the discrimination and closed communities of the Roma need examining.

Don't bother going through your copy, there is no such thing in the Quran.

Apologies BitofFun, didn't mean to turn the discussion into a debate on religion. I used the example to show how some cultures still use child brides as it's rooted deep in their traditions and religion.

gorinine, if you want to debate further, am happy to, but perhaps on a different thread.

It looks like she has a loving, supportive family so good luck to her. I hope at least at a future date, when the baby isn't so little anymore, that her family will encourage her to re-start her education.

Brownies sound lovely, Miumiu . (Anything is better than contemplating the school run in the heavy rain we have right now ).

I thought that most of the Hadith was attributable to Aisha; she was the main source for much of it, and the main driving force behind making the Hadith important in how Islam is practised on a day-to-day basis. So a Hadith tradition about herself I would expect to be fairly accurate.

If girls are getting periods as young as 7-8yo, are we really surprised by this story?

peanutbutter, my dd started getting "buds" at the age of 6 and said that it hurt when it was even slightly touched. I was really upset and couldn't sleep for days on end as I thought girls started developing breasts only after around age 9 or so. Girls seem to be growing up so early .

Rhubarb, I will start a new thread (probably not before tomorrow morning though (9.30 ish) with your name on it in "chat". I think there is a misunderstanding about what I object to in your first and second posts. But I will explain myself better on there (hopefully).

Hope to see you tomorrow.

OP sorry to have hijacked so much!

ha, I didn't get my period until I was 16yo! shudder to think of ever having sex at 11, that's horrid, ruined childhood Poor kid.

my daughter is 12 and is a baby cant imagine her as a mum

I don't quite know why the prophet Mohammed is brought in as the example of "other" cultures sanctioning child marriages- these people were not Muslims, were they? And the prophet lived a long time age.

The poster did not mention that child marriages were common in English families at a far later date (duke of Buckingham married at age 2 in the 1400s).

Anyway, reading the article, it seems unfair to compare this instance to the family-arranged betrothals of medieval England or Arabia: it seems clear that this was not an event pushed by the family, but an attempt to save the situation in retrospect: the girl was already pregnant and, from their point of view, probably needed to be saved from the stigma and loneliness of being a single mother.

This is a case of what happens so frequently in this country: young people get pregnant at a very young age, and the adults then have to decide what to do for the best. The grandmother's comment doesn't sound like this is what they had actually dreamt of, but they are making the best of the situation.

Those of you who think the man sounds so awful that anything would be better than having to marry him might want to think about what it would be like if you lived in a culture where a single mum was socially ostracised (so would lose all her family, would find it incredibly hard to get a job and might never make any friends at all). A marriage to save appearances, and then a divorce if it doesn't work out, might well be the only solution that allows her to remain in her own society.