Call to end "middle class" benefits

[AtheneNoctua]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8319646.stm

"It defines middle class as a household where every adult has an annual income of at least £15,000 and every child £5,000. "

Doodley, my sympathies, I know your situation all too well

I just wish that when we first got a mortgage (very last century) we had gone down the wholly repayment route. It would have hurt, but we might have paid it off by now.

The jump from interest only to splitting it wasn't as bad as I thought and this was when the rate was 7%. We have endowments to cover the interest only bit and they pay out soon.

Something that would make a HUGE difference would be if tax allowances were per household rather than per person. That would transform our lives from being about able to manage to being ok. Dh earns about 40-45k (it's variable), so is higher rate tax payer, I earn about 10k (self employed). If we could combine the two it would make a huge difference.

Doodley accepting that its woefull inadequate, tehr is some help with mortgage interest payments

Lily I know there are people out there who can do those, but fwiw we can't go abroad (we camp for breaks), don't have a decent TV (damaged one we got for wedding gift still does me fine, though DH hankers after the HD types), my clothes are from tesco or ebay and Dh and I each own only 2 pairs of trousers that fit.

So whilst I do understand your point please don't think we're all like that; the kids are well fed, warm and have treats (as the DLA is supposed to cover) but we don't much (and we're not on IS either- DH combines PT work with his study post redundancy, and I combine caring with study also)

I also think people forget some of the oncosts with having your own home. You have to pay for the maintenance of it and that isn't always cheap, either internally or externally, and the insurance both buildings and contents.

Actually that can be the same in rented- we don't do structural repairs but do all the paint, arpets etc as part of the contract. Which is less commitment but some nonetheless.

the wost position we were ever in was in a shared ownership- paid rent as well as mortgage but had responsibility for all of the maintenance. No win either way.

I agree Lily. Being able to transfer some or all of my allowance to dh would make a big difference.

bobbingforpeachys - no, of course I don't think everyone is like that, but when you're standing there at the school gate in your shoes which have gone through and are letting the water in, and the person next to you has £100 trainers on, you kind of wonder who should be supporting who.

Agree that costs associated with owning own home are immense. We have water coming into our bedroom atm, because we can't afford to get the roof fixed.

Your l/l is tight - I pay for all of that for my tenants, and so I should.

I think its the agents tbh- our landlady is adorable.

Lily- I do know, honestly. We feel the same often- why is it that Dh works (quite long hours, just self employed so income below minimum wage-will change next year as he will be a qualified electrician, though stuill studying on top) for effectively nothing given what we lose in HB etc that we don't claim. The answer btw is self respect, sense of achievement, example to the boys and choice- far better to choose and pay for living in a house we like etc than being stuck out somewhere in one we don't.

I agree with all of you that are p'd off with supporting some on benefits whilst going without themselves. However, we are not all like that.

I've worked fulltime since I left school. Now work part time as I'm a single mum - this means I still have to pay child care for the days I work/school holidays. Get no maintenance from the father of my DS. I have a mortgage as there are no council houses. If it wasn't for child tax credits/child allowance I wouldn't survive.

SingleMum01 I?m def not suggesting that your benefits should be taken off you as I don't know your situation but if given the choice would you rather work full time but be supported with free child care and come off the benefits all together?

It's just a question I?m not criticizing you at all,

SingleMum - absolutely, it is right that you get that help.

I'm just waiting for them to say that 'middle income' families have to pay 'top-ups' for NHS treatment. That will be the next thing.

One of the things they are talking about getting rid of for middle income families is Statutory Maternity Pay. But if you can't work, because you've just had a baby, and you get no maternity pay, what precisely are you supposed to live on? I'm s/employed, won't be able to work for 2 or 3 months after baby's born, at the moment I would get Statutory Maternity Allowance, under these proposals, would get nothing. If I was the main breadwinner, what would we live on?

Emma - I will definitely want to be working full time in a few years time, when my DS is older and will do so. Part time works for me and my DS at the moment as he gets the best of both worlds - a working mum plus a stay at home mum so he doesn't have to be in childcare 5 days a week.

I know no-one is criticizing me - just wanted to put my point of view, that some people work hard (very hard considering I'm also doing the work of 2 parents plus working) but need the benefits to survive.

I'm not looking forward to conservatives getting in power as I feel they will certainly impact on benefits and therefore on me and my DS.

if 15k is the threshold - i know shitloads of MC people

can't read that link notyummy! the times website must be down

I agree with a lot of it. Can't see why child benefit isn't means tested like the rest of the benefits (other than it costing more to admnisitrate if they did).

and I wish people would stop trotting out the people on benefits going on holidays abroad and having sky etc. etc. The people I have known who exist only on benefits are far from well off. If there are a minority who are abusing the system, don't tar them with the same brush as those who aren't.

And benefits should be there for those who need it the most not for those who already earn a reasonable income.

They should reform the tax system - that's how to make this work better. Rather than letting HMRC carry on as if it reports to no-one but itself. Alastair Darling is not strong enough to manage them and I doubt baby George Osbourne will be either. Would be SUCH a positive move but no-one will do it.

Hmmm

I am not sure about non-means tested payments, that is I am sure sure we (UK) can continue to afford them.

But I am realy fed up that we cannot transfer tax allowances. I have spent some years not working or not earning very much - surely transferring tax allowance to husband/partner who is funding this so I can look after the children makes sense.

In fact I would go further and suggest a tax allowance was available for each dependent child.....

Then before everyone points out this will cost the country huge amounts (!) I would also increase the top levels of tax.

I have to say in writing this I am surprised how strongly I feel. I really hate tax by stealth (VAT fuel duty, IT etc). I would love a Government to come up with a simple system we can all understand and see. Perhaps involving a heavy measure of income tax, a minimal number of point of sale tax (e.g. cigarettes petrol etc where such tax has proven health benefits).

There would need to be some form of locally administered and collected tax - poll tax anyone (covers head in shame at even mentioning something THAT WOMAN supported!). I think local tax is very tricky to make fair. Would rather this component was very small and education Police refuse etc were funded centrally.

What do you reckon? A manifesto?!!!!!!

I will get flamed for this, and am not being ignorant or stupid, but what was wrong with Community Charge? It merely ensured that if 4 adults lived in a house, and used 4x the amount of facilities, then they paid that, as opposed to a single person who paid 1 charge as they lived alone.

If the rating system had continued, there would have had to be a general domestic uprating, which would have cost us all far more than we paid in CC, as there hadn't been one since 1974.

We now have a bastard system which is comprised of both rates and CC, and everybody dislikes. The only downside I could see with CC was that it was harder to collect as people move and houses don't.

I am incidentally, not talking out of my fundament as I did my time (10 years) as a Community Charge Officer and a Council tax Officer.

There is a tax allowance for each child GBH, but just not transferable.

What was wrong with the Community Charge?

Rich people in big houses paid much less proportionally than poor people in small ones with families

oh.. and they thought they'd try it on Scotland first

That was also true of the rating system though, depending on when your house was valued.

well yeah, it was wrong then too.

4 people living in a house don't use 4x as much services though. It is still one visit by the rubbish collectors, and if you eat together, the rubbish will not be 4x a single person's rubbish. There is still only 1 water pipe leading into the house, 1 bit of pavement to be maintained.

...and the tax was per head, so property size didn't come into it, but personal responsibility and usage of council services did. That's why I can't see why it was a problem. There was a whole system there of ccb, just as there is now for ctb, so those who couldn't afford it could have it reduced.

The water rates were separate and still are.