London school terms including days off for Diwali, Eid-Ul-Fitr, Eid-Al-Adha and Guru Nanak Day

[SomeGuy]

What do we think of this? (The DM has just noticed, there's no point in linking to them though)

This is the school term for Newham schools:

Tuesday 1 September 2009
To
Friday 18 December 2009

plus

EID-UL-FITR
Monday 21 September 2009
GURU NANAK DAY
Monday 2 November 2009
EID-UL-ADHA
Friday 27 November 2009

there are the usual Teacher Training Days scattered throughout the year.

Haringey's term, for comparison, starts 2 days later, so the net result is that Newham children have school year that is 1 day shorter.

Diwali is also scheduled, but it falls on a Saturday so no days off are scheduled.

This year the holidays all fit in well with weekends, being either on Friday, but they are all movable feasts, so in future years they could fall mid-week, weekends, whatever.

A quick look at the banner on Newham's website suggests that the local population is perhaps more interested in some of these holidays than the traditional ones, so I guess many would take the day off anyway.

Obviously there are issues - on the one hand, summer holidays are very long, and moving a few days out of it to make up for these holidays wouldn't make much odds, on the other they are imposing additional childcare obligations on parents potentially in the middle of the week, and an extra holiday on say a Wednesday in January is of little use unless you are celebrating the associated holiday.

The complaint appears to be that these have been forced upon schools (they cannot opt out), I guess it must reduce absence numbers, but should schools have more freedom to set their terms anyway, those (nationally) with significant Muslim populations could set these Muslim holidays, while other schools would not. And I guess in Jewish areas, if they want to have days off for Yom Kippur, they could do that too.

I grew up in Newham, and even 30 years ago when I was at school there was a high proportion of Asians. The proportion is possibly higher today so I'm sure it makes sense for that borough to introduce this new system of school holidays to reflect the local population.

'Irrational crap' moondog?

Yup. Insane AND irrational. Clearly.

I do think a lack of thought about the complexities of cultural difference and ethnicity leads to racism. It is happening all around us. You don't need a moustache and a smoking gun.

The solution you pose earlier on in the thread is a republican atheism. But that isn't easy either is it? It hasn't worked in France. Or the US.

I'm not suggesting the solution is easy. But I don't especially think Someguy is interested in the solution.

Add paranoid.

How do yuo define it 'not working' in France?

It works pretty well in Turkey where I spent 3 years watchnig it in action.

Actually, to come back to the earlier point about Waltham Forest (where I also used to live!), when I was a child in Newham we learned all about the Asian religious festivals, presumably because our friends were in school with us on those days. So it would be a shame for children to lose that.

Having said that I've since forgotten everything about them, but I was just a wee bairn at the time...

Er.

Like this

and this

this

this

Mnay would argue that such events render division of church and state even more important, not that such happenings mean we all need to get on down together for couscous and merguez.

I know plenty about French tensions. My sister teaches plenty of silly girls who come to school wearing multiple headscarves so that they can say they comply with the rule to take off thier headscarves (leaving the one underneath).

My take on it is that they all need ignoring. The nick Griffins and headscarf wearing girls are all puerile attention seekers. Nothing more powerful than amused and slightly bored indifference.

At which, you Moondog, are the ubermeister. No moustache.

I know you know about these things and are very well-travelled. I am perturbed to be disagreeing with you so wholeheartedly.

But I don't accept the subtle invidious messages that stir racism. I don't think it is paranoid; it is EXACTLY how the BNP have won seats in local councils where I live: by avoiding their real beliefs and focusing on what people want to hear.

It alarms me.

I believe schools should have more freedom to set their own holiday dates. I worked in tower hamlets (in a school) and although TH has a large bangledeshi population, the schools vary in numbers. In some schools there can be nearly 100% of muslim pupils, where as in other parts of the borough there maybe only a small percentage.

The school you linked to someguy there is about 60% bangladeshi, so there is no reason to close. All religious holiday is authorised.

The other problem I see is that you dont know when exactly Eid is going to be. If they publish months ahead for the school to close but then Eid is the next day (depending on the moon) what does the borough do then?

The BNP have been successful because people have very real concerns about these things, most of whom are not middle class mums sipping wine in their pleasant largely white enclaves.

The democratic process allows their voice to be heard and although that might offend the sensibilities of the Guardian readers, that's the way it is so good idea to grop up and listen to what they say instead of wailing and whingeing about how unspeakable they all are.

Oh and Vulpina I was about to proffer an apology for being too harsh to you, but have since re-considered as you seem to have a very well entrenched position. If you are going to challenge Racism you need to take it from the other side of the coin, Ihave never in my 42 years experienced any racisr jibes from white Brits but boy have I taken it from black Somalis some of whom are my relatives on my DM's side. Because I am a "half caste mongerel dog " yeah I have had that a few times from them v. damaging for a 12year old child. My mum was castigated for not wearing the hijab, she is a lapsed Muslim and I will have nothing to do with a religion which to my mind subjugates women in a meieval fashion and a religion which is more divisive than Chritianity. Religion breeds bigots and racists to my mind and I welcome a secular state,keep Easter and Xmas in the western calender coz they are based on ancient pagan feasts anyway. But Vulpina! I guess as I am half white I am half racist. I, (getting back to the original post) would not pander to any religious "holidays" for these schools and I would stick to the Bank Holidays agreed by Parliament they serve us perfectly well. What next a public holiday in right wing Aryan schools for Hitler's Birthday?(just a lousy hypothetical example in poor taste I know!) Your links are v selective IMHO they refer to Le Pen mainly. But the idea for the Secular State is very much a part of the Socilalist ideology in France and there are many non/racist Socialists in the Republic (indeed France is an example of a country where Socialism has been v. successful!) Vive l'etat seculaire I say.

Oh and Vulpina I was about to proffer an apology for being too harsh to you, but have since re-considered as you seem to have a very well entrenched position. If you are going to challenge Racism you need to take it from the other side of the coin, Ihave never in my 42 years experienced any racisr jibes from white Brits but boy have I taken it from black Somalis some of whom are my relatives on my DM's side. Because I am a "half caste mongerel dog " yeah I have had that a few times from them v. damaging for a 12year old child. My mum was castigated for not wearing the hijab, she is a lapsed Muslim and I will have nothing to do with a religion which to my mind subjugates women in a meieval fashion and a religion which is more divisive than Chritianity. Religion breeds bigots and racists to my mind and I welcome a secular state,keep Easter and Xmas in the western calender coz they are based on ancient pagan feasts anyway. But Vulpina! I guess as I am half white I am half racist. I, (getting back to the original post) would not pander to any religious "holidays" for these schools and I would stick to the Bank Holidays agreed by Parliament they serve us perfectly well. What next a public holiday in right wing Aryan schools for Hitler's Birthday?(just a lousy hypothetical example in poor taste I know!) Your links are v selective IMHO they refer to Le Pen mainly. But the idea for the Secular State is very much a part of the Socilalist ideology in France and there are many non/racist Socialists in the Republic (indeed France is an example of a country where Socialism has been v. successful!) Vive l'etat seculaire I say.

Oh Gawd now I AM sorry browser went offline and you have got two of me! SORRY GUYS

I hadn't heard of it. How interesting.

No neither had I until I read about it myself.

How fucking interesting that is.

I think the OP is interesting too. The reference to the website's banner. It's all nicely disingenuous...

Oh yes, pointing out a banner that depicts at least four schoolgirls wearing hijabs on the banner is terribly disingenuous isn't it.

Normal people (the kind that don't see a racist lurking behind every corner), might deduce from that that 'hmm, perhaps this place has a high Muslim population'.

Some people, however, prefer to make post like yours.

For the benefit of those unable or unwilling to make simple deductions from a piece of evidence, try this instead guide.muslimsinbritain.org/guide3.html#3.3.2

I can't say I feel exercised by it though, as I said in my OP, it would seem sensible to allow schools nationally some leeway to set their holidays.

Crikey, this took a mad turn.

Look moondog, and bernadette, I am not entrenched. In many ways I think we're on the same side. You might wish to undermine my position with lots of narkiness but I'm more interested in a reasoned debate on this issue.

Someguy likes to stir and drop bombs to go off in discussions. This doesn't affect him directly (notably quiet on the private school issue I notice) so I think most of us who think him a bit disingenuous have a case. He is a master of the wide-eyed 'I'm just asking an interesting question' approach. I still think he is one of many 'astroturfers' on MN and I think vigorous debate is valid in this circumstance.

I don't necessarily think he is racist, but like I said the debate needs outing as the question is often framed in a racist way. The other ways of asking the question are often invisible in the debate.

Interesting that you mention Phillips, bernadette. I think that debate really did open up some interesting questions about how to deal with a society like ours, and I still don't think there is an easy answer. For sure, it matters not a jot what colour you are, nor me (and where I live), nor moondog (or where she has lived or who she is married to), nor even Trevor Phillips. None of us on this list could possibly reject the notion that racism is real or that it needs attention. I precisely agree with you all that listening to the white working class who feel alienated is important. I even am coming round to the idea that the BNP should be listened to also (and be challenged).

And I even share some of your sympathy for the notion of separation of religion and state. I'm not entirely convinced it does solve race issues - hence my link to French conflicts - they were not selective, they were just illustrative of the point that it is impossible to eradicate racism with such a move. The reality is that in countries where there is a republican atheism, racism still exists and some members of society feel that their exclusion from state activities is part of that racism, and that it fuels it among the general public.

Equally, here, the commitment to multiculturalism hasn't solved it either: I know that. And I have some sympathy with Phillips' argument that there has been an entrenchment of 'difference' rather than integration. The BNP are capitalising on this too, quite effectively, in mobilising the idea of 'white English' culture.

But the solution isn't kneejerk responses. As I said, my own was quite kneejerk and I accept SG's reasoning, even if I don't agree with it. But I think ignoring cultural and religious needs is madness. It vaporises people's feelings and identities. I prefer 'normative cosmopolitanism' myself...

Perhaps you will join me to debate the strengths of multi-culturalism vs universalist cosmpolitanism on the Anti-Fascist thread I started? I don't think SG was for one minute concerned with the cultural or educational wellbeing of kids though. I still maintain he is stirring.

Someguy likes to stir and drop bombs to go off in discussions. This doesn't affect him directly (notably quiet on the private school issue I notice)

Eh? Do I have to answer everything three times in this thread?

Over 24 hours ago I said:

"Also schools all have their holidays at the
same time, which is pretty annoying when I'm trying to book my holidays abroad. "

And are you telling me that every thread you get involved with affects you directly?

Or does that rule just apply when it suits you?

But the solution isn't kneejerk responses. As I said, my own was quite kneejerk and I accept SG's reasoning, even if I don't agree with it. But I think ignoring cultural and religious needs is madness.

Yeah, like I've said several times in this thread. If schools have a cultural and religious need to take Yom Kippur/Diwali/whatever off, they should. And if they're a monocultural school in Tobermory or somewhere, they shouldn't.

I don't think SG was for one minute concerned with the cultural or educational wellbeing of kids though. I still maintain he is stirring.

You think what you like, but if I'd wanted to stir I'd have just posted a link to the DM article.

This is a thread you started SG. I'm still mystified about your motivation.

I have to agree - it is a bit mystifying. If all you wanted to discuss was the minutiae of LEA vs school administration, SG, you've got a very funny way of going about it.

well but equally if someguy is a secret BNP astroturfer he's going abotu it in a funny way!

Mumsnet is one place you can practically guarantee you WON'T get a lot of kneejerk "oh this is the thin end of the wedge, next they'll be calling Christmas Wintermass so as not to offend the muslims" type reponses.

I mean look at the responses to this thread - they've been, on the whole, measured, thoughtful and broadly supportive of schools recognising and supporting their pupils' rights to take time out for religious festivals.

If you wanted to incite racial hatred, would you really start on mumsnet?

This is a thread you started SG. I'm still mystified about your motivation.

I beg your pardon, I thought this was a forum for discussing stories of interest in the news.

Obviously posting about school holidays has no relevance to mumsnet whatsoever, something confirmed by the 122 replies to this thread.

My mistake.

That's true, tyv. But it just seems such an utter non-issue. Perhaps it makes more sense in the context of the DM article.