London school terms including days off for Diwali, Eid-Ul-Fitr, Eid-Al-Adha and Guru Nanak Day

[SomeGuy]

What do we think of this? (The DM has just noticed, there's no point in linking to them though)

This is the school term for Newham schools:

Tuesday 1 September 2009
To
Friday 18 December 2009

plus

EID-UL-FITR
Monday 21 September 2009
GURU NANAK DAY
Monday 2 November 2009
EID-UL-ADHA
Friday 27 November 2009

there are the usual Teacher Training Days scattered throughout the year.

Haringey's term, for comparison, starts 2 days later, so the net result is that Newham children have school year that is 1 day shorter.

Diwali is also scheduled, but it falls on a Saturday so no days off are scheduled.

This year the holidays all fit in well with weekends, being either on Friday, but they are all movable feasts, so in future years they could fall mid-week, weekends, whatever.

A quick look at the banner on Newham's website suggests that the local population is perhaps more interested in some of these holidays than the traditional ones, so I guess many would take the day off anyway.

Obviously there are issues - on the one hand, summer holidays are very long, and moving a few days out of it to make up for these holidays wouldn't make much odds, on the other they are imposing additional childcare obligations on parents potentially in the middle of the week, and an extra holiday on say a Wednesday in January is of little use unless you are celebrating the associated holiday.

The complaint appears to be that these have been forced upon schools (they cannot opt out), I guess it must reduce absence numbers, but should schools have more freedom to set their terms anyway, those (nationally) with significant Muslim populations could set these Muslim holidays, while other schools would not. And I guess in Jewish areas, if they want to have days off for Yom Kippur, they could do that too.

So, do you want national observance of these holidays SomeGuy?

My view is of no consequence (though as it happens I don't), I said 'if we want them'.

There are 60+ million people in this country, and national holidays should reflect national opinion. Whatever that is, and I guess you could check opinion polls to find out.

Individual boroughs should not be attempting to set their own 'national' holidays over the heads of schools to whom they have no relevance.

'Frankly, i don't get why people insist on banging on about us being a Christian country when most people don't go to church and huge numbers are atheists. '

Let me explain then. Most of British history up until the Enlightenment was to a great or larger degree informed by religious belief. Hence the Reformation, the Dissolution, the Puritans, the arrival of the Hanoverians.

Most historic British cities are organised around churches and cathedrals.

Most British literature up until the Enlightenment is intensely concerned with religion.

Many surviving religious festivals exist. Like Good Friday. How can children be expected to understand why they're being given a day off if they don't study (note, I'm not saying believe in) Christianity?

If your children don't know a bit about Christianity they are not able to engage with their own cultures. That's sad. Would you take them to live in Morocco or Thailand and not educate them in the culture of the land?

I have absolutely no problem with LEAs setting a few additional holidays for the school population as they see fit. It makes sense for all schools in a borough to have the same days off, and for children to be able to observe their religious festivals. It's fair.

I am so very very tired of this old chestnut coming up. Soon we'll have one about Guy Fawkes Night getting called Bonfire Night in Woking. Then we'll have one about Tower Hamlets having a Winter Party for its staff.

Have you people really not got anything more pressing to worry about than a bunch of kids getting an extra day off school?

Very well put abra1d! Having worked for many years in the Middle East, christian children are certainly taught the religion and culture of islam and are not allowed christian holidays off as the norm.

Our country is founded on christianity - whether or not individuals are believers. Other faiths and cultures are welcomed into society but I believe to dictate to all schools in a particular area that they close for religious festivals other than those of the christian faith is taking political correctness a step too far - such as not allowing "Nativity Plays" at Christmas....

I am in Waltham Forest and the reason this has been raised locally, I believe, is that schools must close on the days the festivals referred to fall on even though the number of children celebrating the particular festival may be small, say there are 5 sikh children in a school closing for Guru Nanak's birthday in a school of 600. Those children should of course be able to withdraw from school on those days.

On the other hand it is a brilliant day to go to Legoland etc as there is no-one else there...

I do agree with abra1d. I am an atheist, but recognise that the values of our society (including the 'I'm going to hide this thread cos it's racist' type posters) have been largely informed by our Christian heritage, and that science and learning were preserved by the churches for centuries.

Our current 'we don't really believe in anything' society is, historically, an aberration.

On the other hand it is a brilliant day to go to Legoland etc as there is no-one else there...

Well yes, but perhaps a Monday in November is not the best time for Legoland.....

Monday 21 September was though

oh yes. I do like bits of holiday when nobody else is off. We went to this place: www.kidspaceadventures.com/ last October half term, which we had an extra two days for compared with other schools, and it was quite pleasant. Clearly hellish in the holidays though.

Ah yes. DH has taken DC to Romford. I have personally avoided thus far. Perhaps we shall go to celebrate Guru Nanak's birthday

Reminds me:

Paramedic arrives at a scene of car accident. She asks the injured person - 'Where are you bleeding from'.

Reply: 'I'm from bleedin' Romford'.

britain is not a christian country.

it is truer to say that british christianity is british, having absorbed british traditions and values into the framework of christianity.

easter is the festival of Eostre after all, and christmas is winter solstice...

were we to celebrate the same festivals as christ, we'd be celebrating Jewish festivals.

what happened prior to the reformation with the massive involvement of the church in the life of the country had everything to do with the politics of the time, and bugger all to do with anything Christ ever said.

I would be fine with it if there were children at the school who celebrated those festivals. It goes without saying that if no children enrolled at the school were of those particular faiths it would be a waste of time in allocating those days as holidays.

i do apologise, I know it's a holiday in various other countries and thought I'd do a quick check on SA -- and found a link which said it was! very stupid of me as the same page also had all saints' day as a public holiday in Saudi Arabia too!

duh

Allowing flexibility for people to observe these faiths is a good thing which has nothing to do with whether or not York was built around a Cathedral or if York came first.

hehehhe the old roman fort was there before the cathedral doncha know...(i am dfinitely on the 'continuity' side of that particular argument)

the whole 'uk as xian nation' thing annoys me due to being not my opinion wrong

yes i know its a total side track, that's half the fun of Mumsnet, isn't it?

OP - LEAs do more idiotic things than tell schools which holidays to observe. yes i agree they should let individual schools decide (pehaps issuing guidance that these festivals should be observed where appropriate) rather than demanding it.

i have no doubt the DM will have made this into something it is not and don't feel any need to view their page to confirm this.

Chinese people have very few days off school for chinese festivals - temples open late in China though, so kids can get round to them after school. Generally Chinese new year is a week off, and that's it. Poor little kids get very little in the way of holiday at all..

I dabbled with paganism when I was younger. Do you think if I'd had a child at that point, his or her school would have allowed us to have pagan festivals off? (Or possibly called social services...)

Am not entirely sure exactly when they all fall now, but I know Samhain and Summer Solstice ob. fall in holidays anyway.

I disagree with this, because if only some schools close for the non-christian festivals, it might tend to make parents choose schools on "religious" grounds, rather than the nearest good school. I know this already happens to some extent, (quite apart from catholic schools, which is a whole nother thread), but having one rule for all within the borough at least gives less excuses for segregation.

Vulpina pins the same old boring "racist" badge on anyone who disagrees with her/him. Vulpina you are predictable and very boring and you were probably one otf the very same idiots who were accusing Trevor Phillips of racism. And his sin, to state emphatically that multi-culturalism in Britain was not working and caused more damaging segrgation and divisivness within communities, I have always celebrated Britain's multiculturalism and we are far mor tolerant as a nation than even some of the more Liberal Scanadnavian countries. (Denmark does not practice what it preaches to other countries ref Immmigration etc) When Trevor Phillips made his original comments it did make me sit up and take heed, (I am from a mixed race backgound) does that make me a Nick Griffin supporter? Bollocks it does!
And Vulpina I do agree with the tenet of Some Guys argument you did not read his post properly and just jumped in there with your insane rantings, I notice MNHQ removed one. Perhaps you are a secret double agent working for the BNP, trying to stir up a little aggro or perhaps I am the first black member of the Klu Klux Klan. Yeah Whatever!!!

Insane? Yup, that's me.

They deleted it because I told someguy to fuck off. He called me an idiot.

The point I am making is a complex one. I don't think someguy is racist, but I think the way the question is framed leads to the easy support of racist ideas. I do wonder why he wants to ask the question, given he is well known for preferring private schools and so none of this affects him directly.

Have none of you heard of astroturfing

I live in one of those boroughs mentioned. It was a suprise to learn the schools shut on these holidays when we moved from another borough but doesnt bother me.

I thought they borrowed the days off from other holidays like the long summer one. Do they give extra days off?

Whatever, I cant get excited about it myself. In fact I think its nice. Its not like they are trying to ban Christmas (although maybe that will be trotted out in next weeks DM, it usually is).

You do come out with some irrational crap Vilpusina, like this

'And this niggling about how unacceptable it is to be different, all reasonable and above board, and this asked all wide-eyed and innocent, as if there isn't an undercurrent about how it might be oppressing some mythical 'white minorities'... It gets right on my tits.'

Gosh, yes,we're evidently all just a small step away from growing moustaches and smoking out the Poles.

I hadn't heard of it. How interesting.

I think the OP is interesting too. The reference to the website's banner. It's all nicely disingenuous...