The Tories are gonna get in, it's inevitable do you care? Is there an upside?

[TheDullWitch]

Oh why not have the election NOW. Let the buggers get in, show their true colours, become universally loathed, then get kicked out after one term. Come on, let's get on with it!

SWC yes we do deservie it don't we?

Go on, vote for them so I get my just desserts LOL

I am dreading the Tories' win.

In particular I fear cuts as cruel at Thatcher's in the 1980s which doubled the number of children living in poverty.

When the economic crisis hit the Tories proposed doing ....nothing. Can you imagine the extent of the crisis had we not spent our way out of danger?

I'm also a bit about the Tories' attitude to Europe which was described my Eddie Izzard as: 'La la la la, we're not listening, la la la la la!'

This Labour government is a disaster, I agree but over the last 12 years they invested heavily in services and have had big successes, such public and have for example massively reduced NHS waiting lists. Labour also introduced an equal gay age of consent and civil partnerships.

Unfortunately I went off Labour the UK invaded Iraq.

Bring in the Greens or the Lib Dems - anyone but the Tories!

And DC accepted a free holiday in South Africa as a young politician, at a time when the black were still being persecuted. He went on a 'jolly' there with other Oxford graduates.

I have always voted Labour. I don't agree with what they've done to this country, I hated the war and Tony Blair and I can't stand Brown, but what other choice do we have? Nick Clegg whose mother probably still wipes his arse for him?

The Lib dems have a very big problem

Taht's everyone saying 'Oh I woudl vote for them but they'd never get in'

Er no, not if you don't vote for them!

But this time for the first time ever I may well vote tactically also, I may vote to keep the Tories out rather than to get someone else in IYSWIM.

I ahte it but can't se what alternatives I have

Lots and lots of people remember the 80's and Thatcher, but what was it like in the 70's before Thatcher? I am too young to remember...

Dont think much of LibDems nationally but locally they have been excellent in my view. My MP is a Lib Dem and is very on the ball, involved in the community and does righy bu our borough.

In an ideal world I'd want the Greens in power

I'm not Crumper (and why do i doubt you are LOL....)

I remember Mumand dad getting a council house

everyone on my estate having a job in industry (I know that wasnt necessarily representative but where I lived it was)

It wasn't fab but I don't think it worse than the peak of the Tories. DS1 will be SN and a late teen under the tories f they get in, much as I was (a bit older without the SN)- poor kid, only chance of work is through supported schemes, he's stuffed

right by

I remember the hot hot summer of '76, my chopper bike, and school. The country's economy passed me right by, so when I read about the 80+% income tax, the blackouts and the unions it really doen't translate into anything I remember

Great article here by Johann Hari about the right wing narrative re. national debt and cuts.

The Tories, being right wingers, want to cut benefits and reduce the size of the state. But they can't be honest about their motives, because the electorate wouldn't wear it - so they have to ramp up hysteria about the supposedly catastrophic level of debt instead. The fact that Nobel prize-winning economist Paul Krugman disagrees with them - as well as Danny Blanchflower (no not that one), the ONLY member of the MPC to see the credit crunch coming - should tell you something about how valid this narrative is.

I remember that it was easy enough to get a council house, and you got good ones, not shitty ones.

I remember blackouts but I think that was due to our meter, we had to keep topping it up with 50ps!

I remember seeing a lot more policemen around, we had a local bobby who everyone knew and feared.

My mum didn't work and when she left my dad she seemed to do alright.

Oh and I remember, being the first one of the family to go to college, getting a grant. Without that grant my mother would never have allowed me to go. If she had to pay for something it just wouldn't have happened.

The grants were being phased out by the time I went to Uni, but I managed just about, I took a job as well to get me through.

Quite, policywonk.

What is even more galling is that when the banks which the (Labour) government bailed out and bought enormous numbers of shares in (40% or so?) become profitable again, as they will undoubtedly do, it will be under a Tory government, who will then reap the rewards and the credit for it when they sell those shares back to the banks for huge profit. The massive "debt" won't look so massive then. But by that time huge cuts will have ravaged the public sector and ruined lives.

Oh and do you remember when the doctors actually used to come out and see you? My mum didn't drive so when one of us got sick the doctor would come out. I don't know how she would have got us there otherwise, there were 6 of us and when we got sick, we got very very sick!

Oh and buses and trains! They were cheap enough to use once! My gran used to get the 'Ring 'N Ride' and it would stop below her block of flats, take her into town and bring her back, for nothing! Paid for by the government.

That is a refreshingly unhysterical read, policywonk.

Agree re cuts, Policywonk. Polly Toynbee says

"Make no mistake, had David Cameron and George Osborne been in power to do what they proposed, the catastrophe doesn't bear thinking about. With ATM machines within hours of shutting down, the Conservatives urged us to do nothing, spend nothing, laissez-faire and let it happen. Supermarket shelves would have emptied in a chaos of panic.

To spend money then was to invest in saving us all, and the debts we incurred were a price well worth paying. Had we not spent that money, the cost of total collapse would have been unimaginably higher. We do indeed need to repay the money borrowed, but over time, with care, at a sustainable pace, without destroying the fabric of our much improved public services.

we do have an amount of debt that is way out of control and does need to be reigned in. Labour was voted in with GB saying prudence is key to fiscal policy - prudence my arse! Yes you need to support the banks, make more investments but not to let go of the purse strings. As usual Conservatives have to clean up the mess left by Labour and it will hurt us all - I do hope though they keep their 'new' Conservative approach and try to keep a balance and look after the poorer/ weaker members of society but we need to get real, drive out the culture of the state will always look after us even if we don't want to do it ourselves (as opposed to can't do it). They probably will get in but I see more voters either not bothering or splitting votes to smaller parties and independants. The fiasco of expenses at commons and stuff like that is a joke - no business would let itself be run like that.

SkaterGrrrrl - do remember that the Tories nor any of us knew exactly how dire that situation was. It was being hushed up for obvious reasons - to avoid a run.

The banking system could have been kept going without bailing out the bank sharehlders and bondholders though. That is where the big mistake was made. Those investors should have lost everything as the risk all investors face but the Govt did not need to take on the baking system bad loan liabilities at all. The shareholders and bondholders should have born those losses. The Bank of England could have supported the basic banking function to keep cash machines funtioning and the Govt did not need to risk tax payers money at all.

The problem is that the Govt were in a panic and just guaranteed not only depositors money but bond holders money and in some cases even shareholder money. All that was for purely political reasons of not wishing to let a Scottish/Northern England bank (RBS, HBOS, Northern Rock, Barclays) fail in Labour heartlands.

Of course the Torys would not have let the basic banking system collapse. No Govt would let that happen - allowing the bank investors to lose everything but rescue the sytem and the small depositors and keep business and commerce runnning is all that needed to happen. Instead Labour handed a massive windfall gain to the City by the action it took and a landed a massive windfall liability and actual losses to tax payers.

When I read the words "Polly Toynbee says" my heart sinks.

PolicyWonk - well fair enough, even if Johann Hari doesn't think that we're going to go bust, I still have a massive problem with the UK govt paying 30bn (or 1/3 of the cost of the NHS) in debt interest every year.

ps, it's david blanchflower.

I have not had tome to read the whole thread today but in my professional capacity ( Care Related) I can say that I have recently been party to some discussions about finance for care service with senior County Council officials who are of the opinion that the situation will be the same whether (sorry, when) the Conservatives come into power. In Conservative run County Councils spending limits will be in force in the next financial year in any event and in other council areas the party has given advance warning of what they will be looking for. I'm an optimist and in my area we have been talking about service improvement - such as helping people make the transition between home, hospital and back again more smoothly - thus reducing costs of repeated admissions. Also we are devising schemes helping older people to remain at home for longer and avoid care home admissions. Y9ou may have seen the UNISON adverts in newspapers and care providers are likely to join with them in not only opposing any substantive cuts but in supporting costs reductions that can actually bring benefits. I work for a care charity and have no political axe to grind here, just wanted you all to know people are working on this behind the scenes.

There is an interesting school of thought that suggests it will be better for the 'left of centre' (lab/lib dem) voters if the Tories win with a massive majority rather than a slim one. This is because if the majority is slight, DC will have to listen and give concessions to his backbenchers - some of which are scarily right wing - in order to get his 'centrist' policies through. Not sure I buy it... but an interesting point I think.

I also think there is a lot of scaremongering around what a Tory govt may or may not do. I don't think they've said anywhere that they are stopping child benefit, working tax credits, DLA, cutting nhs spending??? This is the labour spin machine at work imo.

Now while labour have undoubtedly improved things in the NHS/schools from the dark days of the 1980s' Tories, massive inefficiencies have also been created - just look at the number of quangos in existence now vs 1997 - c. 135 (which, btw, NuLab promised to reduce!) as opposed to now - 1,162. The waste is criminal. And the increasing interference in my daily life makes my blood boil. Bring on change - we badly need it.

The DAL thing:

there is a paper atm regarding attendance allowance that proposes assessment movs to the domain of the SSd's, assessment is the older peple variant of DLA so there is much concern re whether that will move to DLA.

The problem with it if that happens is that many people can't get access to SSD'd, a brief survey on the SN boards showed a great many of us do not have input. In my own case, DS1 despite severe aggression does not meet thir criteria for disability becuase you have to prove it will be lifelong- amny with ds1'sdx improve, although secondary problems (including an eating disorder)a re already rearing their head at age 9 so whilst I hope he will be independent, guarantees are far from present.
He has a marked presentation of what is diagnosed as AS / HFA. he seems so NT in some areas bt internalises the stresses and createsd violence either towards himself or others.

DS3 has more severe ASD, severe enough to be in a SN unit school. He has not been assessed becuase we're on a waiting list of goodness knows what length. I did ask for help when I was heavily pg with SPD last year but was refused because apparenlty I can cope. Well, it doesn't feel like it at 3am.

I contacted the Tories for reassurance that this would not happen and they said it was undecided. In fact the only aprty against the moved from their responses to me is Greens.

No DLA means no CA for me, but it won't make the SN magically disappear so I can get back to work sadly.

Anyway, that is the history of that concern.

I really do think anyone who thinks that Labour have been a disaster is going to find out that things can get a lot worse.

Personally, Osborne's recent speeches have chilled my blood. The public sector must suffer for the excessive greed of the private sector. Education, health, provision for the elderly and children, we will see them all suffer enormously and to the detriment of all.

Meanwhile, people with rich parents will get cuts in inheritance tax.

I shudder to think what we're going to have to live through in the next few years, tbh, especially those of us who aren't 'wealth creators'.