OMG - Gordon Brown will scrap Nursery Vouchers

[rob1974]

BBC says here that Gordon Brown is going to scrap childcare vouchers:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8279701.stm

We get two lots of vouchers and save about £150 a month. There's no way we'll both be able to keep working if they scrap them.

I think that this sort of policy will be implemented woever gets in given the financial circs. Like dilemma456 said yesterday about reeling all the working mums back home like after the war etc. In fact I can't see how this policy is anything else - improve the huge unemployment to come by removing tax relief on vouchers making it unaffordable or not viable to have 2 parents working meaning more jobs to share round for men and younguns. A lot of those affected may get into huge amounts of debt but will be still just a teensy bit too well off to get anything to help them. They'll probably have savings they can cash in or a car they can sell. Some may end up by becoming more of a 'burden on the state' but the vast majority will manage even if they're really pissed off. The facts re. 2hrs of childcare for 2 year olds could result in even more savings - you get to talk about it at conference to touch base with your core vote. In reality hardly anyone takes you up on it because it's too difficult or inappropriate. To make this work even better try throwing in really long complicated application forms and a badly rum call centre. (e.g. tax credits, CSA, Social Fund 'hotline')

Can't be arsed reading absolutely all of the bollocks on this thread, but a quick wordsearch on that linked article gives us the following quotes concerning the workd "child:"

"He said Labour would call a referendum on electoral reform and offer more free childcare for poorer families."

"Mr Brown announced a string of new policies, including:
Ten hours of free childcare a week for 250,000 two-year-olds from families "on modest or middle incomes" - paid for by scrapping tax relief for better-off families."

"The PM also announced that minimum wage, child tax credits and child benefit would continue to go up every year."

"These are binding contracts which require parents of children guilty of anti-social behaviour to accept one-to-one support or else lose their benefits."

There are no references to the word "nursery" or the word "voucher".

An thoughts from the Daily Mail rapid response crew on this?

According to the Times Online it will be closed to new entrants from April 2010, and phased out over 5 years. It will apply to 250,000 of the poorer families - it will not even apply to everyone with a 2 year old.

The man is barking. Seriously barking. I failed my 'o' grade maths, and even I know that it's senseless and the sums don't add up.

JandLG I really don't understand your point. And given we are all talking such bollocks you can't be bothered to read, I wonder why you bothered to post at all.

JandLandG - it is clear from the bbc link at the start of the thread

"Labour would scrap the £1,000-a-year tax relief on childcare claimed by nearly half a million working parents"

I am a workng mum with a 2 year old and one on the way. I earn £26,000, and my husband is a higher rate tax payer. If I have both kids in nursery, after nursery fees and tax with the childcare vouchers, I will take home £580 a month. Without childcare vouchers this drops to £405. That is far less than you would take home after tax if you earned the minimum wage. I am absolutely livid! I am being taxed out of a job by this labour government. By me not working, Labour would have done themselves out of £4,500 worth of tax to save £2,000, losing out to £2,500. It is madness!

How are we supposed to bring up young girls to have ambition these days when, if they have studied hard at school and earn the average wage, it is virtually uneconomical for them go to work if they have children?

I have just returned from a weekend visitng friends in Sweden. They get approx £100 a month for each child in benefit, and nursery fees are around £130 a month - yes, £130 a month! If you have a 2nd child the cb for them is more, about £110, and the nursery fees are less. They really cannot fathom how our mad mad country works. Sometimes neither do I.

I have written to my MP, and urge you all to do the same.

Actually I support the scrapping of child benefit for people who are higher rate tax payers. It's barking that we get this money each week for our kids which we don't need if it could be used better.

I realise that I'm probably absolutely the only person on Mumsnet who feels like this.

But I don't get how people are expected to go back to work if the average wage is less than the cost of childcare plus average living costs.

The thing is, higher rate tax starts at £43K, which if you've got a big mortgage because of the city you live in, the cost of running a car (or 2) or commuting, children to feed and clothe, utilities and council tax etc etc etc, it is not really an awful lot. I can understand doing away with child benefit for the 60% tax rate payers, but not for the lower 40% payers (and no, I'm not one of them!!)

Excellent post, Lozzstar. I went on a 2 year career break 8 years ago because the cost of having 2 children at nursery meant that I was earning next to nothing. I then got an evening job in Asda, on the minimum wage, and my take home pay was higher .

You're right - this Govt is doing nothing to encourage middle income earning families with children into work. The children that we are bringing up with little or no help tax-wise are the future economy - the Govt should be doing everything it can to make it easier financially to use childcare, not harder.

I am talking about the highest tax rate Paolosgirl. No-one with a six figure salary really needs that twenty quid odd a week do they?

Ha. You all voted for the twats in the first place. Suck it up.

No, I agree. Six figure salaries are probably fine without an extra £20.

Gerogimama, that's what I like to see. Intelligent, reasoned argument .

And no I didn't actually, how dare you assume that just because I know how to use the internet I must vote labour.

With an aging population to please he needs to scrap hospital carparking fees to get lotsof silver votes hes not bothered about a few parents so will rob them to pay for the carparking

He wants to make sure that oldies don't have to pay or care and so will have to find other ways to take like the 10p tax scrapage to pay for all the vite winning ideas he has.....

Oh come off it. The vast majority of MNers vote labour - see many many threads passim. You all thought they loved mums, families blah blah blah. Tis bollocks.

No, I agree. Six figure salaries are probably fine without an extra £20.

The problem is more with two incomes. I earn six figures, while DW doesn't work. It doesn't make sense for her to either, because of childcare costs and our inability to get tax credits.

There are plenty of women who would like to work that would benefit from these sort of tax breaks.

AFAIK, increasing the number of people in work is a good thing. And I really don't think these sort of schemes are particularly expensive.

We will lose out on childcare vouchers and probably won't get much out of 10 hours free childcare unless we can have it as one free day of nursery - 2 hours just doesn't work for us, we would need a decent block of time. I would love a scheme which allowed me to have one or two free days of nursery for my DCs at some point, it would help us far more than chidcare vouchers do.

It's disappointing but,

Childcare vouchers mean a very small amount of money in relation to childcare

They benefit higher rate taxpayers more than basic rate tax payers - I'd prefer help towards childcare which is more equally available to everyone, not just means tested. You also have to be earning a certain amount to get them, and probably working a certain amount. Many part time workers especially if they're just one or two days a week and/or quite low paid probably are ruled out of vouchers anyway.

If you sign up for vouchers before 2011, you can apparently continue to get them until 2015, which should be some consolation to some people here

I didn't get round to getting vouchers when I returned to work after my first maternity leave, as I was pregnant again in less than 3 months and I was worried about losing more in pay in my maternity leave than I would gain - it didn't seem to make sense to join, leave and join again to avoid that, and I didn't know about the loopholes that mean you can get vouchers on top of SMP (all a bit over complicated anyway). DP is signed up for the vouchers.

The other thing is vouchers have implications for some benefits and future income for some people. My employer and dp's allow you to do it without losing out in the final salary pension scheme, but some employers don't (as you may have your pension calculated on a lower wage).

I don't like the proposal much but think the Tories' plans will have a far worse impact - cutting Surestart, cutting public spending etc.

Ho hum. If I leave work Gordon will lose all my lovely tax money, and a fair bit of the lovely tax money paid by the people I currently pay for childcare.
And I'll grow my own veg and sew my own patchwork bunting and generally be far less economically active.
The silly old fool.

They estimate that a two parent family on basic tax rate where both claim tax relief will lose £1924 per year, while anyone earning more than £43,000 could lose more than £2390.

Mr Browns reasoning on five news was that "some of it was going to sponsor horse riding lessons and other things because it was not properly managed".

There will be worse to come
Probably more NI, maybe VAT up to 20% or expanding it to food etc
More public sector job losses, pay cuts

They say he's going to hit middle britain hard, that's anyone who isn't a millionaire and anyone who isn't financed solely on benefits, so he continues his fight against what should be called 'the working class' and he really thinks we are going to roll over and take it does he?

I believe the saving for basic rate tax payers from childcare vouchers is about £700 a year, for higher rate about £1,000, so those figures are a bit high.

And my memory is that the Tories increased VAT and that they quite like the tax because it isn't income tax.

Not according to five news, the national papers and even money saving expert.com, I would link but I don't know how on my new keyboard so you'll have to google ( sorry).

Yes the Conservatives did raise VAT, but again I didn't see good old Gordon drop it back down when he got into power and he has steadily increase everyones tax burden over the years as well.

Least we forget the 10p tax that labour brought in and had to do a U-turn on by handing some back to families (but not everyone of course).

And let's not forget that labour dropped vat down which cause businesses (large and small) a massive headache as well as a financial burden only to increase it again (more financial hardship for businesses when they can ill afford it) and have admitted that it could go up to as much as 20%.

elkie, those figures are per person, so if both parents are working they double.

I certainly think the tory party are capable of much worse, but what I think the Labour Government has given us is ridiculous bureaucracy and administration.

Childcare vouchers cost a fortune to administer (hence the number of companies run up specifically for that purpose which will no doubt now be out of business) and the CTC forms are inpenetreble.

Why not just give mothers with children a higher personal tax allowance if we are supposed to be encouraging them back to work. If they do not need to spend the money on childcare, fair play to them but given that the Government now decides who is capable of looking after our children everybody probably will!

If they want us all to stay at home they could make it transferable to your partner.

Vote for me

fruitstick and atlantis, I've just looked it up - basic rate tax payers save up to £903 a year, which doubled is less than the figure quoted, according to dp's voucher provider's own website (money saving expert doesn't actually give proper figures). It's less if your pension contributions are contracted out as ours are, because we and the employer pay less NI. Moreover, families with a low income who can get childcare tax credit would be worse off with childcare vouchers.

I agree with fruitstick actually that the bureaucracy and complications for both CTC and CVs. I don't expect we'll get to see those 10 hours free childcare for 2 year olds or that it will be possible to have in more than 2 hour blocks at a time, but if they'd do it properly I think it could be better than existing childcare help. I still haven't worked out whether or not I would have been better off signing up for vouchers or whether I should when I go back to work myself.

Also (sorry I'm beginning to harp) the timings of it are a mockery.

If you cannot begin to claim vouchers starting next year (2010) but the 2 year old placements are not being introduced until 2015 there will be a generation of children (born effectively between now and 2013) who will not benefit from either scheme. Also, if you change jobs after 2010 will you automatically lose those vouchers if your new employer is with another provider.

It's all a nonsense, albeit an academic one. I simply cannot believe that Labour think this is going to win them an election, or help them out of crippling debt.