has anyone covered the NHS republican slander free healthcare for americans thing today?

[Tortington]

i cant find an existing thread is there one.

i been listenng to radio on the train - talk shows need to comment

I think the objection is the part about government control, and not the part about it being more accessible. You have made a huge assumption there -- muchlike the one about "ignorant" doctors using Fox news as their only source of information.

It's all sounding like a good old McCarthy Witch Hunt to me.

lets also not forget our charming MEP who added fuel to the flames. tosser.

of course free schooling is ok, they get to indoctrinate their kids every morning about how f'ing brilliant the US is..

I'm coming in late to this thread, but wanted to add my experiences of UK vs US healthcare.

Firstly, whilst I was living in Georgia (DEEP south!), I had a friend there who had an undiagnosed gut problem. she'd lost more than 60 % of her body weight over 18 months, and looked awful, very weak all the time, always shaking. Her insurance was through work, so she had to work to be able to afford medical care. She was not allowed more than (I think) 2 weeks sick leave at a time, or she could lose her job. Her insurance company would not pay for her to have the vast majority of the tests she needed. Eventually, about 2 months ago, she managed to get a referral to a doctor who could creatively put forward a need for the tests she required - she had them, her condition was diagnosed, and she is finally receiving treatment. so for 2 years, she was being seen by doctors who could do nothing for her, as her insurance wouldn't cover it.
My sister, lives in the UK, and started displaying similar symptoms to those my friend had in October last year. She went to her GP, got referred to the hospital for tests, and then whinged (as did my family) that the appointment wasn't until late November, and she was away on holiday then. she rebooked her appt, got one in early February, and had exactly the same tests my friend had (luckily they were all clear). Now, my sis is a student, so paid NOTHING for her care. My friend in the states is still paying for some of the tests she had. Her husband has just taken on a 3rd job to cover their costs. (they also have debts from 15 years ago when their only child was born prematurely).

Secondly, maternity care. I'm now 34 weeks pg, and for the first 20 weeks I was in the USA. I paid $130 a month in insurance, the univeristy I was working for picked up the other 3/4 of the insurance premium. I had to find an OB/GYN clinic that my insurance would cover. Luckily, I'd chosen a slightly pricier scheme, as I found a good clinic, and got an appointment for 2 weeks hence. The care was OK - can't complain too much, although they did insist I have a flu jab or (and I quote) 'you'll be killing your baby, do you want that on your concience?' (I made a formal complaint about that doctor actually...). I had an appointment every 4 weeks, scan at each one, blood tested each time, had my anomaly scan over there. And after each appt, I had to pay $100 in fees.

Back in the UK - register with GP, register with midwife, register with hospital - cost to me? well, my taxes. which I pay anyway. and which are no higher than US taxes. Oh, and I get free dental care and prescriptions here too. Plus I get up to 1 year maternity leave (my American friends are deeply jealous of this side of UK 'socialism')

I'd go with NHS anytime. It's a fantastic service, and I love it.

Oh, and whoever mentioned the Michael Moore film, Sicko - not the best film ever made, but eye opening nonetheless.

But could I persuade even one Republican friend over there to watch it? hell no! they all refused to watch anything which was directed by a known democrat supporter. seriously.

One of my cousin's posted this thing comparing the number of people killed by doctors vs. the number of people killed by guns. I despair.

Maybe I should plan a visit, with my French Socialist DP? and then stand by and watch the fireworks ...

Every country has to ration healthcare, because demand for healthcare is always going to outstrip supply as medical technology grows.

The UK rations healthcare with the waiting list, and the US does it by excluding or limiting access to half its population. The US healthcare spend is about double that of the UK per capita, btw (9% of GDP vs 18% of GDP). This means that with their current spend, they could extend healthcare universally and it would not cost trillions. Everyone with private medical insurance is paying for their healthcare, usually via their employer. It wouldn't really make much of a difference to transfer this spending via the taxation system.

Putting money aside, there are fundamental differences between the UK and the USA. In the UK, healthcare is more holistic with the GP as the gatekeeper; in the US, it tends to be specialists working on different parts of your body separately. I think this is a much bigger hurdle to overcome than the money angle. In the UK, most of us assume we are well unless there is an obvious problem and then we go to our GP; in the US, they have a system of annual physicals, even for well people where they look for problems. Obviously early detection is a good thing, but the system and culture means that you approach your health from a negative viewpoint.

Americans will very condescendingly describe the NHS as 'socialized medicine', and they view socialism as marxism, when what it really is in this context is more methodism than marxism. These notions of socialism are so ingrained in their culture, and any reverse will take a long time of brainwashing in the opposite direction.

Arolf, thanks for posting about your experiences. You've confirmed the response that I received when I merely described our healthcare system on an American forum, which varied from polite to blank disbelief.

I think most people asssumed I was exagerating madly because I was patriotic nutter. In fact I was describing a system that was completely outside their experience or expectations.

Actually, a friend is over in LA at the moment (she lives in London, but is originally from Russia). She was out at a fire swallowing display (or some such), and someone called the police. The police turned up, started searching everyone (even those just watching, including my friend), and took her passport to take down the passport number. She asked them what they were doing and why they were taking her information, and they told her to keep quiet. She kept asking, so they hand-cuffed her and took her into custody. When she tried complaining, they told her to shut up, that they were protecting her rights, America is a free country, but they need to protect people from troublemakers (like tourists watching fireswallowing displays?) and stop complaining, this is NOTHING compared to what would happen in Russia (oblivious of the fact they were talking to an ACTUAL Russian). They then told her that she might be deported and banned from entering the US ever again.
In the end, she spent the night in the cells and they released her the next morning. Insanity I tell you.

But from DP's description of the French healthcare system, they too rely on specialists. He is shocked by the number of issues that are dealth with by GPs in the UK, rather than specialists (for instance, he says prescriptions of things like the Pill are dealt with by gynaecologists). Could they move more towards the French model, rather than the British?

Of course the AMA is opposed to it - they fear that it may jeopardise their livelihoods. In fact, doctors here were opposed to the formation of the NHS - it is one of the reasons why GPs are "self employed" - this was a sop to bring them on board.

In comment about the "ignorance" of (some) Americans, I can remember being asked on more than one occasion if "Scotland was far from England"

My dh was also once asked if "we can get Paisley patterns" in Scotland. He and a colleague were also once asked "if we have universities and colleges in Scotland?". His reply was "yes, and my university is older than your country" - but was topped by his colleague who retorted "yes, and we have inside toilets too"

The thing is, Obama isn't even proposing an NHS style system, he's just talking about making sure everyone gets health insurance.

Good points, swc.

I think the NHS is great, but I know that it is not perfect. I don't think that if your were starting off today, you would invent this from scratch. It was formed in a very different time and has slowly evolved to where it is now.

From a cultural standpoint, the NHS would not be a good fit for Americans. They often tout the Canadian system as a model. Canadians do have a specialist focus to their health care and are generally very satisfied with the level of care they receive. They do have problems though, such as a severe lack of GPs, meaning that many people have to go to walk-in centres for basic healthcare and consequently don't have a doctor with a general overview of their health. This is a problem with medical school places though, so something that should be solvable.

I happened on a blog after a comment piece by a rational journalist who cited some pro NHS testimonials. According to one of the posters, the reason for the rash of Brits defending the NHS is that they 'have a gun to our heads',if we badmouth them they will deny us treatment.

What hope for the poor of America when there's that level of ignorance and paranoia?

I love the nhs but that level of organisation? pmsl

I'm defending it becuase I am proud to come from a country that thinks the livesof the poorest are as valid as those of the richest, and where everyone clubs together to ensure that

"For example, why can I not choose my GP / hospital on the NHS? Why can I not call the doctor on Monday for an appointment on Wednesday? Why when my daughter is referred for one scan, do I also get an appoint for a scan she has already had but the hospital can find no record of?"

I think there is a fair amount of hospital choice on the NHS, and I think the choice thing is a bit of a red herring anyway - patient choice doesn't automatically mean better care. I can call my GP on Mon for a Weds appt. Or a Mon one. NHS. Local situations will vary, sure, but it's not a given on the NHS. Private insurance providers don't offer unlimited choice either. And your last one is an admin error - think that never happens in the private sector?

NHS is not perfect, no, but it takes away the terror that some people must feel about not being able to afford to be ill. And often it's bloody marvellous. I saw a quote from NICE on the news - out of context, but something about something not being worth the money. Point is, though - we can access, through FoI, all the NICE decisions - we can lobby to have these decisions changed through our MPs as part of the democratic process, and we can argue for transparency as it's a govt body. Private providers have to make budgetary decisions too - being private doesn't make them a money tree, but they don't have to justify these decisions to the public like a NHS type body does, and to me that's really important.

Next week I get my firstencounter wioth private healthcare that isnt related to the sn (vaccinations)

will be intriguing but the one thing I can say is the choice of appt has not been better. Far worse, if anything.

swc asked "why do we jump up and down as though they were insulting our mothers?"

Don't think it's so much the insult to the NHS, which I think we'll all accept isn't perfect, as the lying about it (no treatment for the elderly/disabled etc).

At the minute I am halfway through 'Deer Hunting With Jesus' by Joe Bageant. It's an entertaining read - and an intersting insight into why vast swathes of poor Americans happily vote for a party that totally screws them over time and again.

Just so, Heathen. Some of what I've seen (like the idea of NHS critics being identified and denied treatment) would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. Totally specious arguments detracting from the real debate of how the US can achieve universal healthcare.