"Breastfeeding is oppressing women" (from The Guardian)

[morningpaper]

Let the breastfeeding rebellion begin

"In the 70s, many women protested that they were shackled to domesticity by the unreasonably high bar set for housework. Now, some say, it's not the vacuum cleaner that's oppressing women, but another sucking sound ..."

But but but but

This is a depressing article.

A British academic wouldn't give her name "because she is concerned about attacks from the pro-breastfeeding lobby"

I also fidn it really annoying when people say "I really tried to breastfeed for six days and it didn't work" - By six days lots of women will be in agony. The message that if you haven't got it cracked by six days then it hasn't worked - is just wrong.

And if there is such enormous pressure to exclusively breastfeed then why are only 3% of mothers still doing it at 5 months?

Yes women will feel guilty if they don't breastfeed. Women have the chance to feel guilty if they don't do a million things that are 'optimal' for their children's health and wellbeing. We can all agree that women need more support in the transition to motherhood, by setting up this monster of a pro-breastfeeding lobby is utterly unhelpful.

Having children BLOWS for women - your fanjo is shot to pieces, your career goes down the shitter, you piss yourself every time you sneeze, you lose your pension rights, your brain turns to mush, you have no social standing, boys stop grinning at your in the street - but BREASTFEEDING IS STILL THE OPTIMAL WAY TO FEED YOUR BABIES. You can't un-do that boring fact. And handing women a bottle isn't going to make everything better.

zahora, that does sound truly miserable

What is opressing women is the way we are treated as sex objects, valued mainly on how we look.

Zahora, as MP said, looking at a few of your other posts, it does semm as though your issues are around the whole having a child thing rather than just BFing. It's sad that you feel this way, and I hope that you come to terms with things and start to enjoy your child rather than end up blaming him for your unhappiness. Perhaps you need to consider counselling (with or without your DH) to help you through this?

I also think it sad that this was your experience of baby groups and wonder if it is your issues with BFing in public that have exascerbated this. I go to several baby groups where mums have been bottle feeding their babies and I have been the only one BFing mine, and never felt the merest hint of animosity towards me, or felt animosity to those women. We were just a bunch of mums chatting and feeding our babies. I think that this is most people's experience as well.

penthe's "Instead, they should adopt a "Formula is biologically and nutrionally abnormal and sub-optimal" campaign." is spot on as usual.

My mother (a mum in the 70s) would get upset with me when I called formula 'fake-milk'. That's what is it for me! Breast milk is normal and perfect everything else is manmade next best thing.

Oh, look, you lot - can you stop being so bloody well-informed and brilliant?

Honestly, I come onto these threads now, expecting to have to make sensible point after knowledgeable assertion and you've ALREADY done it!

Aitch, Tiktok, MP - all brilliant.

I shall bang on for a bit though, if I may?

The pressure to breastfeed is an INTERNAL one, as has already been said(!) on this thread. Yes, people can say unkind things to you, whether you're bf or ff and that is them being unkind, not part of some organised lobby (ha! Bfers are less organised than atheists fgs).

And what do we say to unkind people? We say "Bog off, you are being unkind."

And why does the pressure come from inside? Because we all know, barring any medical issues [insert usual caveats], that bmilk is the best thing for our babies. And if we don't want to or we can't give that to them, that feels unpleasant.

But actually, the "don't want to" and the "can't" are very different and often get confuddled - with the former, often peace has been made with a conscious decision, so you're in quite a robust position. When you can't do something you desperately want to, that's not a decision you're making - you're powerless.

This sort of article either comes from that place - the angry, lashing out, why couldn't I do what all my friends did, what was best for my baby, I wanted to and I COULDN'T and it's NOT FAIR! Or it comes from the former position, the "Oh, fgs, we aren't COWS, I didn't want to do it, I'm fine with that, let nobody make you feel bad about not doing it, they're all hairy lactivists anyway, ew, gross".

It seldom comes from the oft-held "Actually, I'm really sad about this, I'm angry with the maternity service, I didn't know it could be this hard, nobody told me and if I'd had well-trained people helping me both before and after I'd had my baby, things could be so different".

And that's a great shame, because if there were more articles written from that latter place, there might be more pressure put upon maternity services, on the Government to front up and add meat to their poster campaigns - rather than putting it on the women who are trying to support pregnant women and new mothers to breastfeed.

Because attacking them isn't very clever, is it?

intersting how every thread on bf gets back to personal anecdote.

Hunker, are you really saying that the messages regarding breastfeeding that circulate in the public domain play no part in the pressure (some) women feel to bf?

Zahora - i find that hard to understand why you made it so bad for yourself.

Surely after a year of feeding you were able to latch your baby on withour exposing your breasts? Its not that hard and if you are so body consious then you could just tuck a muslin square into your bra and nobody would see a thing.

To me it sounded like your problem was deeper than bf and its a real shame that it has out you off having another baby.

If ds is a year then he does not need to drink cows milk anyway, he can get the good fats and calcium from food. My Dd2 was never really into milk bm or cows milk. She was a small baby due to reflux, i bf her until 10 mths and then she refused cows milk so i had to give her lots of cheesy sauces, yougurts, cereal with milk and added milk to her food, plus green veg.

My dd1 loved bf milk and continued drinking 8ozs of cows milk a day until she was almost 5. All children are different.

I agree at first it can be quite lonely bf especially if you are the only person out of the mums you meet and like you said many hv have no personal experience but to struggle for one whole year? It sounded like you made up your mind about how you felt and instead of fixing it, you stuck to it and put your self through all that misery.

a happy mum is better than a bitter mum, i just hope your baby did not feel these vibes from you as it is probably a factor towards his clingliness. But its quite common for children to be clingy at that age as they dont understand you will come back if you pop out of the room. Maybe just sing as you leave the room so he can hear your voice until you come back.

i believe in bf if mum and baby is happy otherwise there is not point but i dont believe in giving up so easily.

bf can be hard work (some people find it easy), i didnt and it took a few weeks the 1st time before my breasts stopped bleeding and hurting. but bf helpline was honest with me after i shouted crying down the phone "TELL ME THE TRUTH!", then i decided to keep going to see if she was right and she was.

BUT if things dont change like in your case then you should stop, being happy is more important.

I dont think the advice in this country is realistic, when you are pregnant they say if the baby is latched then it will not hurt - SAY - RUBBISH!

My boobs are very sensitive and i cant even touch them, mw and hv checked my latch was correct but still bits of nipple came off, bleeding etc... two weeks later it was a breeze and i loved it, 2nd time around it still hurt but only a little again for two weeks. my latch was observed and fine.

so people need to know that he may hurt alot even of the latch is ok but to carry on until your breasts have toughened up BUT if this does not happen at least you had a good go and you should stop for your own sanity.

the last thing you want is to feel bitter towards your baby every feed time.

but with Zahora, the pain was not a problem but it sounded like she was uncomfortable, it takes practice to get them on with your clothes on and not revealing your boobs but many manage it. You can even buy special wraps to totally cover you and baby which i will get this time to not shock grannies

Its sad that Zahora had nobody to talk to and out thing into perspective, she could have so easily changed that situation!

the messages are accurate, its the way that we fixate on them that creates the guilt. the WHO aren't responsible for my feelings of inadequacy, neither are the breast is best posters. i dont look at the ads for clothes and feel resentful that when i wear them i dont look like the model.

Yes hottoast just like opinion piece articles - stats and facts are difficult to stick too if you have personal experience to draw on.

It is not always helpful to draw on anecdotes but it does indicate where a poster is coming from and what colours their view. We cannot ignore this is an emotive issue for many.

Definitely the guardian article is missing the wider picture regarding the issues around breast feeding.

"Fake milk..." Without it, I couldn't have fed my boys. None of them gained weight on my milk. Ds2 ended up in hospital, diagnosed as failing to thrive after losing 10oz from his birthweight and failing to regain most of that by 6 weeks old. He was pale and so thin.

Thank heaven for the fake milk.

we need to claim the language.
penth is quite right about the over-protesting-ness of 'breast is best'

breast milk
synthetic milk

In a rush but brill op, and brill thread in general. you are all brill.

lol at rectify the anomaly - I always wondered what F Ted's 'down with this sort of thing' reminded me of, and now I remember..

Right, to use the example of childcare - studies generally show that the best thing for babies and young children is to be looked after by their mother [usual caveats about Baby P-type "mothers"]

However, I'm not a SAHM - I work full time. I mitigate that as far as possible by working compressed hours, etc, and the boys are fine and happy but I still feel crummy about it sometimes.

Yes, there are people who say "WOHM don't love their children, there are always things you could give up to afford to stay at home", etc, etc. Yes, there are books out there telling me of the virtues of being a SAHM [Biddulph], there are studies, as I said, etc.

But the pressure I feel is internal. I know that the best thing for the boys would be if I was a full-time SAHM. But my situation dictates that I can't be. So instead of getting angry about it and blaming or resenting SAHMs, I get on with it and make the time I do spend with the boys nice.

Of course the external pressures make a difference - they reinforce the internal feelings. If I'm feeling crummy about working, I don't read threads called things like "WOH damages your children", for instance!

morningpaper,I do think that bf is a very isolating experience. You become the only person that baby relies on. At the time, I could see the benefits of bfeeding. But in hindsight I would have had a much easier time if I had bottlefed and left him with my mum sometimes so I could get some sleep or go out and get a haircut. BF is now the exception and not the norm, you don't find many women who have bf so you don't have the shared experiences....e.g weaning problems, or won't take a bottle... sore nipples....

There needs to be better guidance on breastfeeding. I had conflicting advice. Let baby feed whenever he wants so that milk supply is demand led. And then at some other point when I'd go to the clinic because I'm at the end of my tether I'd be told to keep to a timetable by a different hv. errr..... Weaning, use breastmilk in the baby rice.... yes ok. breastmilk in the babyrice. ...and then when he didn't take formula because I want to start giving him a bottle.... didn't you put formula in the babyrice? I was so confused! There was a small, (very small) leaflet on weaning in general, there's nothing about bfeeding out there that is consistent. There's not enough people with proper experience and then they tell you breast is best.

(Sorry, my last post was to Molesworth - thread had moved on!).

Starlight, this is something I feel v strongly - we are a capitalist society, in order to be a "good mum", we have to buy things for our babies. And look, here are some adverts for v prettily ergonomic bottles (in pastel colours!), a fancy steriliser, a lovely coolbag which fits the bottles v neatly - mmm, a BAG - it all feeds into our desire to surround our babies with STUFF.

So it can be quite dull to realise that you already have your breasts and don't need to buy them...!

mothers' milk

denatured cow milk

and thank GOD for that denatured cow milk, absolutely thank god for it.

i'm sure i've moaned about this before (chorus of 'get over it') but when i was in hosp with dd2 at 3am in the morning i had a fight with a paed who told me that formula isn't cow's milk, it's 'made up of chemicals'.

'JUST because it says Cow on the pack,' she said, while shaking a wee bottle of C&G in my shocked face, 'DOESN'T mean there's cow inside the pack'.

moron.

zahora, i think you should consider putting in a complaint about your HV, tbh. she sounds like she is utterly useless at her job and failed your needs miserably.

i agree that formula is a great invention, but its popularity has come at the expense of bfing.

however, i am also very aware that 2y ago my posts would have been very different. it is only time (and the fog of PND lifting) that has made me see that i didnt fail by ff, the system failed me.

Aitch - I remember that from the time - still doesn't fail to be bloody shocking though!

Zahora, bf CAN be an isolating experience, clearly, because for you it was and that's really not good Nobody who supports bf would want your experience to be the norm though - and I would hope if you did go on and have another child (though it sounds as though you may not, for other reasons?), your experience would be different, because you'd got a sort of list of "what not to do".

Just out of interest - why didn't you just bf in the car, rather than go into the service station?

Zahora, I think that you are externalising your own internal conflicts over BFing, one of the very points made earlier in the thread. And although I think your story is sad it's fair to say that BFing is all consuming and at times overwhelming, having this little being entirely reliant upon you for nourishment and, to some extent, comfort, but it's only isolating if you choose to make it so.

But, it doesn't detract from the real point of this thread and that is that public perception of BFing vs FFing isn't all black and white as indicated in that article and that FFing women everywhere are NOT being condemned as bad mothers by the minority that go on to BF for longer than a few months or the mythical pro BFing lobby.

Good thread, lots of interesting points.

Zahora - your horrid experience of breastfeeding was not the 'fault' of breastfeeding. Your issues, as far as I can tell, were entirely social (I am including the rubbish HV in that, too). In a truly bf-friendly society, breastfeeding would just take place without comment or fuss, anywhere women and children happened to be at the time.

It's notable that your experience - of being made to feel freakish and the need to isolate yourself for bf - is the exact opposite of mothers bottle feeding who say they are scared to use a bottle in public, because of the perceived pressure to bf.

I'm an NCT breastfeeding counsellor, and we're aware of the reality of the statistics that show huge differences in breastfeeding initiation and maintenance - this is mainly (but not solely) class led.

I do think the experience of being 'made' to feel embarrassed and self-conscious for using a bottle is an unusual one. Feeling different for using a bottle is more common, but it is still confined to those relatively unusual areas where the majority of mothers are breastfeeding at six weeks . I don't think middle class angst should be taken any less seriously than working class angst, but by the same token, I don't think it should be taken any more seriously.

Speaking broadly, most women want to breastfeed. This is not because of pressure, but because they recognise this is something lovely they can do for their babies. The role of society is to enable this to happen.

BTW - the WHO term of 'faulty feeding' is not in a message directed at individual women, so there is no need for anyone to feel got at. The WHO speaks to governments, NGOs and other agencies connected with public health. There is no judgement of individual women in the term 'faulty feeding' and all WHO's policies and guidance are directed at agencies.

And again, BTW - there is no 'breast is best' campaign. The slogan is the title of a book.

"But actually, the "don't want to" and the "can't" are very different and often get confuddled - with the former, often peace has been made with a conscious decision, so you're in quite a robust position. When you can't do something you desperately want to, that's not a decision you're making - you're powerless." - hunker I do believe you've hit the nail on the head again about an aspect not just of this debate but also the one that has been raging about epidurals.

In both cases, there's a huge difference between someone who has made a conscious choice ahead of having the baby and been lucky enough to be able to achieve their choice (to have an epidural, to bf, to ff etc) and someone who has been forced into a decision they didn't want to make (by not being able to bf, by complete lack of support for bf, or by a long long labour that exhausted them)

And the reason many people get so upset and feel judged by others saying 'Well I chose to bf because it was best for my baby' or 'Well I chose not to have any drugs because it was best for my baby' is because they feel they had the luxury of that choice taken away from them. As Aitch says, one of life's disappointments.

To have that choice is a lucky position to be in.