Chief midwife tells women that they should endure the pain of natural childbirth

[MissM]

Here.

It's too early in the morning to get my blood pressure up, but my response was off. Have you ever felt like you were going to split in two? No, because you're a man, and you've never bloody given birth!

Tosser.

chaya - you're still not convincing me the death analogy has anything to offer this debate

Hmm. Lemme see....Bringing a new life into the world, one that has grown inside us and with whom we already have a relationship, and starting a new totally transforming chapter of our own life: how is that different from dying, eh? Let me count the zillion and one ways......

Just stating, as you do, 'people say this about childbirth pain, and these bits of what they say remind me of pain and death' doesn't make it a good analogy.

The utterly horrible thing about dentistry is how passive we have to be while we undergo it. We have no part in dentistry other than to feel the hurt. At its best, childbirth is very different in that respect, becasue we are agents and not patients in the process. So there is the potential to improve the quality of the experience by perceiving the pain as something functional, positive, a cue to action and not an uncompensated curse.

Recognising that doesn't at all mean withholding necessary pain relief, and of course it does mean providing women with the absolutely best kind of midwifery support.

Agreed. I have been told by my midwife that when I ask for a epidural the midwife on duty will most likely use 'delaying tactics.'

So many of my friends have asked for epidurals and either not received them or recevied them after hours of waiting (sometimes 3 or 4 hours).

I have not heard of anyone who has been forced to have an epidural against their will.

Tiktok, I was analogising the pain of death with the pain of giving birth. Not the actual outcome. Duh.

yy agree there Lenin.

(And should also make the disclaimer that I was one of the plain lucky people for whom nothing untoward happened during two births, so that it was relatively easy for me to see the positive aspects of pain.)

Totally agree with that leningrad.

I fully agree that most women are equipped to deal with the pain of birth naturally if they have confidence and belief in their abilities and are relatively free of fear. Good ante-natal classes made me feel exactly that way and as such I had exactly the labour I wanted (apart from DH missing it lol).
Many women do not feel confident and feel full of fear. In those cases they should have the right to request pain relief based on the fact that they want it. Many women have experienced natural birth and fully do 'not fancy it' again - likewise - their right. They know what their threshold is and nobody, male, female, midwife or otherwise should tell them that they don't.

The reason I suggested inflicting physical pain similar to labour on him was his asinine suggestion that pain promotes bonding and is an important 'rite of passage'. Giving birth, however it happens, is a rite of passage. Pain is not necessary to mark it. Nor is it necessary to bond with the baby. The rest of what he said may be uncontraversial (except for an epi epidemic - where???) but those comments deserved ridicule.

Just read the article. The guy is a tosser

My Great Gran committed suicide when she discovered she was pregnant for a 4th time, after 3 previous 'big' births, all with no pain relief I believe. So yeah, pain free births is a good thing

As for me, I had everything going and none of it worked. Paracetamol, Tens, birthing ball, birth pool, massage, gas and air, pethidine, epidural...and I developed PND.

Articles such as this, particularly his comments about 'bonding', do not make me feel any better!

just read a previous comment about 'delaying tactics'...OMG that's what they did to me: "anethesist is elsewhere!"

the papers and radio over here have picked up on it now.... gerry ryan was going on about it on his show and by the sounds of it the journos are twisting his words further and further from what he actually said in his presentation.

very annoyed with myself as i had forgotton to bring my phone with me so couldn't ring in and explain what the presentation really said

I would be interested to see some kind of research into how many women who had epidurals in labour subsequently wish they hadn't. For me that's the ONLY thing that's relevant - are there women out there who feel they could have managed the pain in other ways had they been offered them?

I felt like a failure after DS1's birth as I was convinced the epidural I had contributed to him not getting into the right position. He was induced and it was pretty hellish, but I spent three years beating myself up about having the epi, wishing I had been stronger, better, braver etc....

Then this man comes along and tells me that I'm right to feel like I failed, that I probably harmed my bond with my baby by having the epi, that I missed out on an important rite of passage and a spiritual experience etc etc. Is it any wonder I feel madder than hell?

He's aiming for the right thing - more support for women in labour, but what, please, is the point of making these kind of public comments about bonding and rites of passage apart from making people like me feel like failures and bad mothers? Why do we need to hear them? Keep it to the medical science, please.

And now sodding Jeremy Vine has got hold of the story, so we'll definitely have a reasoned debate on it...

I have had 2 ds's.First time round I had an epidural after suffering screaming agony for hours. In the end unfortunately I had to have a forceps delivery. Post birth was lovely though. I felt relaxed and a real sense of joy.

Ds2 I didn't have an epidural. I had a pethidine injection but in my opinion it didn't kick in until too late. The pain was unbelievable and after Ds2 was born I had no sense of joy at all. All I could think about was the pain. Also the pethidine set in and DH took Ds2 and I fell asleep. It took me along time to bond properly with DS2 and I'm sure in part it's due to the flashbacks to the pain.

I've no interest in anyone else telling me what my experience of pain is like or what I should be prepared to put up with.

I think the dentistry angle is a good comparison as it's something that someone would survive if they had with no pain relief - so it could be argued that pain relief wasn't necessary. Obviously an outrage if this was the case.

Childbirth is something that also happens in life and, if no medical complications, the mother will survive if no pain relief - but it can be really painful and awful and drugs help the mother to get through. To suggest this hinders the bonding process & effects bf puts blame on women for having a more 'comfortable' experience than otherwise.

starlight I think your two very different experiences highlight the issues well. In the first, you should not have been denied and epidural. For the second, you were extremely well prepared and had a lot of support, which is sadly not a typical experience for most women giving birth in Britain today.

It would be great if everyone could have the experience you had with your DD. But this would take a major change in the NHS, in policy, training and resourcing, which they don't seem prepared to do. But to fail to provide properly resourced and supported childbirth, AND to suggest you should take away the option of an epidural...

Oh the things I would like to do to darling Dr Denis - without pain relief.

No woman should be denied pain relief if that is what she has decided is best for her, and for her birth, and for her baby. Thumbs up to those who choose to give birth without pain relief - you're far braver than I am! But no one should be judged because they have decided that they want the pain to be eased.

I've been told that the closest pain a man can feel to labour is having kidney stones. Now, how much outrage would there be if doctors started refusing to give pain relief to stone sufferers because it builds personaility, or something like that? It would be seen as totally rediculous.

Birth can be a totally traumatising experience for women, so why make it worse by judging them?

My DP is playing the, "You're just pissed because he's a man" card, and its not that in the slightest. Its the fact of judgement being made on one of the most personal decisions a woman can ever make. Who is, not just this man, but anyone aside from the mother, to claim that someone doesn't need an epidural?

I'm really quite angry with this, I must admit. I could go through and critise the article virtually sentance by sentance.

WjatFreshHell: "Then this man comes along and tells me that I'm right to feel like I failed, that I probably harmed my bond with my baby by having the epi, that I missed out on an important rite of passage and a spiritual experience etc etc. Is it any wonder I feel madder than hell?"

Of course you are going to be a tad cross if someone says that to you. Ditto the people who think they are being 'judged' for having pain relief/

WTF?

No one is saying this. No one is saying people who have an epidural have failed, or they have missed out on a spiritual experience. No one is judging anyone.

The actual paper and the statements and the comments are uncontroversial. Women should be supported to have the experience they want in labour and childbirth - for most, this includes one to one care from a midwife/wives they trust and who listen/s to them. When this happens, they need less pain relief and they report a better experience. Less pain relief is a good thing, because all pain relief has downsides - the upsides, in individual cases, may outweigh the downsides, and of course women who want pain relief should have it.

Having a baby without an epidural has upsides, too, and those of us who would prefer not have an epidural should not be seen as freakish or superior, or as judging others who do.

No one is saying women who want or need an epidural should not have one. No one is saying they have failed, or have not bonded.

But if care in labour was better all round, then there would be fewer epidurals given. That would be a good thing.

Is Dr. Denis Walsh saying women should never have epidurals?

Nope.

So what are you all getting your knickers in a twist about?

To compare the pain of contractions when giving birth to any kind of broken leg or kidney stone is completely inaccurate. The pain is a positive pain in that whilst it can be extremely unpleasant, it is NOT a signal that something is wrong like a broken leg.

I personally think it's a concern when women go into labour saying from the off, "I want an epidural. I've never done this before but I want an epidural," because of all the panic (yes, massive panic) and hype that has sprung up about childbirth.

Some women prefer to have epidurals and those women should be able to have them.

Haven't read the entire thread but think it might be worth people listening to the interview with him on Today this am (tiktok mentioned it earlier) as he says his comments were taken out of context and seemed quite sensible from what I heard (haven't listened to the entire interview)

link

It's the entire Today programme which runs 6-9am. Dr Walsh was interviewed just before 8am (just after Thought for the Day).

But hang on a minute - you can't say that needing less pain relief is better for the mother's bonding/spiritual yada yada yada without the opposite being true - that having more pain relief is less good for the woman/baby/bonding/spiritual yada yada.

Otherwise he's saying all births are equal but some are more equal than others, isn't he?

This is why I'm so angry at him banging on about bonding and spiritual experiences and rites of passage - it has NOTHING to do with the debate.

Yes, more support for women to make and have choices about labour would be good. Yes, less pain relief needed would be good from a MEDICAL perspective, i.e. fewer health risks to mothers and babies.

But to bring in all this bonding nonsense is neither here nor there.

Well, I think that if, after having researched my options, I make an informed choice that I would like an epidural, then I should have the option to have one.

Or, if having laboured for 14 hours and being labelled ?failure to progress? and wanting to freaking shoot myself because I was so tired, I decide that I want an epidural, then I should be allowed to have one.

What I don?t want to do is have some officious midwife telling me to breathe through the pain, that the pain is beneficial to me, and labelling my ability to not do it ?naturally? as a failure, because I may then spontaneously rip their throat out.

I'm sure that natural childbirth is an empowering and uplifting experience for some women and I say more power to them, but it isn?t the case of all women. And it wasn?t the case for me. And the mantra of the day is, or should be, choice.

Additionally, he?s a man, so frankly, he can fuckity fuck the fuck off.

And breathe??

For every woman screaming for epidurals, I bet there are ten others who don't.

Neither kind of woman giving birth is a success or a failure.

Who started bandying these words around? I bet it was women themselves, judging each other and themselves in light of their own perceived 'failures' and 'successes'.

But I do think the rising level of epidurals does need to be looked at. What's wrong with that? Nobody is saying that a woman can't have one.

And other ways of managing pain presented as viable options to birthing women. What's wrong with that?