Chief midwife tells women that they should endure the pain of natural childbirth

[MissM]

Here.

It's too early in the morning to get my blood pressure up, but my response was off. Have you ever felt like you were going to split in two? No, because you're a man, and you've never bloody given birth!

Tosser.

bumpsoon, have another read of what he actually says. He does talk about removing choice from women (with his disingenous posing the 'question' as to whether elective caesareans should be allowed) He says: "In the light of this discussion so far, a rationale certainly exists for questioning the appropriateness of an elective, ?on-demand? epidural service....it would be a brave person who would take up such a position."
and he does use the phrase 'rite of passage'
I quote: "labour pain timeless component of
?rites of passage? and talks about 'spirituality' as though this is universally agreed to be a/a good thing (and rationalism a bad thing!) and he DOES talk about the value of pain in making women better mothers.

He uses the rites of passage bollocks again here:
"Over recent decades, there has been a loss of ?rites of passage? meaning to childbirth so that pain and stress are viewed negatively"

Pain and stress viewed negatively? No shit sherlock!

I was also astonished he said that childbirth had never been so feared. Says who? Where are his surveys of, say, Bronze Age women, or even 17th Century women? Women used to write goodbye letters to their children before going into labour. I think that indicates a fairly high level of fear. The Bible talks about pain and suffering in a way that makes me think women have never exactly looked forward to it.

Im just curious why people believe that it is ok to demand a particular type of pain relief in labour and not in any other area of health care ? making tea at mo so please feel free to flame me while i burn it

'Im just curious why people believe that it is ok to demand a particular type of pain relief in labour and not in any other area of health care ? '

Because in no other area of healthcare are you even expected to have to ask for pain relief.

If you break your leg they administer pain relief.

If you go to the dentist they automatically anaesthetise your mouth before working.

If you have to have stitches in any other area of your body, they automatically anaestetise.

Etc., etc.

Well yes and no , im not automatically going to give a patient with cancer morphine because they have a headache am i ? not every child with a broken arm will need morphine will they?

'im not automatically going to give a patient with cancer morphine because they have a headache am i ? not every child with a broken arm will need morphine will they?'

yet you wouldn't make them beg for it, use delaying tactics to keep them from getting it, tell them they just need to breathe through it or cope with it because it's enriching, or staff a hospital without people able to administer it because it's the middle of the night.

"Well yes and no , im not automatically going to give a patient with cancer morphine because they have a headache am i ?"

Probaby depends how far along they are. And what Expat says. The option should be there for women. They have other things to worry about than an argument that they should suffer it, as if it was their penance for original sin.

I agree with tiktok.

This guy isn't arguing at all that women shouldn't have epidurals. He is questioning, as any medic worth their salt would, why epidural rates have doubled in the last two decades. CSection rates have also increased massively, and you don't see this sort of hysteria when a medic questions that. Quite the opposite - people are usually pleased that we're not just blindly following a Csection culture.

This is the same principle. Just as a csection is statistically riskier than a vaginal birth, an epidural is statisically riskier than a natural birth. Those are the facts. There may be perfectly good reasons medically why an individual may need, or want, an intervention, but the article is talking about childbirth overall, not specific cases.

If you want to have an epidural, then surely it's better that you go into it knowing the pros and cons, rather than feeling pushed into it, or that you could have managed without one if you;d been better supported?
Surely if you are totally happy with your decision to go for an epidural, then why the ranting and raving?

Some women are very keen to achieve a natural birth, and do. Some women are keen to have an epidural, and do. And some women would like a natural birth, but end up pushed into interventions, or are insufficiently supported to cope with their pain through other methods, and end up with an epidural but wishing they hadn't. This last group are the women who the article is probably most relevant too - because the doctor is saying that with better support they could have maybe achieved a birth they were happier with.

Ok i would never prevent anyone having the pain relief they NEEDED ,that would be wicked .
However surely you can see there are going to be times when an epidural ( not all pain relief) isnt going to be the best thing for either the mother or baby ?
As for there not being enough staff to give epidurals ,well most hospitals run on a skeleton staff on weekends and nights .im lucky to see a dr on a night shift unless there is an emergency . there will be an anethestist in the hospital ,but they could be tied up in theatres with an emergency . This is a fact of the NHS. People should be more honest though ,if that is the case they should say so ,rather than leaving people feeling abandoned or let down .If people know the truth then they are more likely to lobby for more staff .

So both the instances of c-sections and the instances of epidurals have increased in the last two decades.

So have many other factors, including the average age of women giving birth. I think I am right in saying that the older the mother the greater the risk of complications.

Therefore, more older mothers = more complications = more intervention.

Not good or bad, just facts.

And facts can be manipulated to suit any argument.

It is shame some good points this man made were clouded with a bit of clap-trap about spirituality and rites of passage.

Perhaps the NHS should make it easier for women to give feedback about their care in pregnancy and labour so we can get the services we deserve?

violethill - "If you want to have an epidural, then surely it's better that you go into it knowing the pros and cons..."

I agree with you on that, but unfortunately Walsh doesn't. He's talking about removing that choice.

Not about making sure you know the risks when you make the choice.

bumpsoon - "Ok i would never prevent anyone having the pain relief they NEEDED ,that would be wicked."

Good. But the only way to make sure that women who need pain relief get it, is to make sure they have the right to ask for it. No-one else is as well-placed to make that call.

You can choose to give birth in a midwife-led unit, from which pain relief may be a trolley or ambulance ride away, and that's a choice. And it has to remain a choice. Walsh wants more women to have to give birth in settings where pain relief isn't an option.

We need to hold onto the rights to:

1. choose to give birth in hospital settings where epidurals are available
2. be given epidurals within 30 mins of asking (as the NICE guidelines now state).

'Ok i would never prevent anyone having the pain relief they NEEDED ,that would be wicked .'

How do you know when a labouring woman (who is not in transition, by which point it is too late for epidural) doesn't need that form of pain relief?

Only she does because she is the one experiencing the pain.

Expat ,please dont mistake me ,i am not for one minute suggesting that we take away choices ,but as you pointed out if a women is in transistion then an epidural would be pointless ,no matter how much that women felt she needed it . I remember wanting to go home at that point ,i swung my legs off the bed and was already to make a swift exit ,so i caould come back tomorrow ,my dd was born 10minutes later .
I have to admit to being anti epidurals for me personally ,i have no issue whatsoever with anyone else having one if they want one ,aslong as they are properly informed of the side effects that can come with one ,and its no good telling a women inlabour the side effects because lets face it when you are in hurts like a bastard pain ,your ability to make informed choices rather escapes you .

Lenin, when I was having DS, was talking to the anaesthetist, asking what should would have -- vaginal or c-section, and she said she wasn't sure, but that the medical profession generally don't see a hassle free birth, but said there was a woman who walked in that same day, had the baby in about 4 hours without pain relief, and went home 4 hours later. She was so impressed that it changed her view of things.

Starlight sorry you had such an awful time giving birth ,were you given any choice where you could give birth ? I thought that in MLUs they didnt offer epidurals as a matter of course? I still think there needs to be alot more education about the types of pain relief .I eneded up having pethidine with my dd even though i didnt really want it ,because i knew it would slow the labour down .It was offered to me at a point where i was really struggling with the pain and was told its now or never .I would of managed the pain had i been allowed off the bloody bed ,given that dd was back to back and all the pain was in my pain as i kept telling them

oops back not pain

bumpsoon - urgh, I also had a back to back one. Nasty. Also felt that would have coped with better support - despite being in a good MLU. Midwives v overstretched, was hours and hours before they spent enough time with me to realise that the labour was not progressing as it should. Next time planning homebirth, as only way to get proper support.

Yep homebirth for me too

Starlight ,sounds like you had the shittiest of shit times .Back to back is a bastard isnt it ,the contractions dont seem to work as well as normal posisitioned ones if that makes any sense .Did you have a midwife with you the whole time ? Did you get the opportunity to get off the bed and move around ? I think the only reason i sort of coped was because it was my second baby and so was under no illusions about how crap is was going to be

I'm writing this as someone who had two fairly easy births, the first with an epidural, the second with just gas and air, both induced.

I honestly felt like I was going to split in two when DD was being born. I'd never felt pain like it and DP said that I was asking for every kind of pain relief going during labour, and that I'd asked for an epidural and also for morphine whilst they were getting the epidural ready. In fact, the anaesthetist was reciting the legal blurb half an hour before DD was born! I wanted an epidural whilst I was in labour, but on reflection I'm glad I didn't get one as in a reluctantly perverse way, the pain did help me bond better with DD.

That said, I resent any man telling any woman that she shouldn't have an epidural or any other form of pain relief if that's what she wants and needs. The only reason I didn't get the epidural with DD was because I needed to push as soon as they sat me up for the needle to go in.

p.s. DD was 10lbs 3oz and she was delivered using just gas and air and I didn't need stitches - one term that's been use by my sister: bucket fanny!!