Chief midwife tells women that they should endure the pain of natural childbirth

[MissM]

Here.

It's too early in the morning to get my blood pressure up, but my response was off. Have you ever felt like you were going to split in two? No, because you're a man, and you've never bloody given birth!

Tosser.

I think he/the Observer report of what he said is picking on the wrong target. Shouldn't be blaming women, but telling hospitals what they are doing wrong - by not providing a safe, comforting environment with 1-1 care from a known midwife.

The thing that really stood out for me in the full article is the comment that

'Childbirth has never been safer, yet women have never been more frightened of it'.

I believe that's a big part of the issue. Is it a cultural thing, that we have become so used to being in control of every detail of our lives, that the concept of letting go of control, and allowing your body to experience extreme pain, is just too frightening? I don't think it's an emotionally healthy state of affairs for such vast numbers of women to be so scared of a natural process. And yes, I know there are some women who have a genuine birth phobia, and yes, some women will always choose epidural, but surely the doctor is right to question why our culture has shifted so far?

edam - if you read the link, you'll see that he's not directing anything at mothers at all! The slant put on it by the newspaper is journalism, not medicine!

Why should we have to experience extreme pain if we don't want to?

And I think it's natural to be scared of extreme pain too. It isn't exactly pleasant is it?
If women want an epidural they should be allowed an epidural.

that's why I said he/the Obs report...

The midwives with me tried to push an epidural on me the ENTIRE way through my labour until they couldn't anymore as it was to late. I was determined not to have an epidural and I'm glad I didn't - that was my choice but I had to be really strong to make it all the way through. It was like they were on commision for each bloody epidural they gave out. My dp knew I didn't want an epidural unless an emergency c-section was required and every time he backed me up they jumped all over him telling him it was my choice, however, when he suggested gas and air they were all for him making suggestions.

If you want an epidural have one but I understand where he's coming from on this.

If I could have had hypnosis on the NHS I'd have taken it gladly.

Everyone needs to make their own choice.

dxx

Thunderduck - the doctor isn't saying women should experience extreme pain. He is giving a very thorough analysis of the risks of epidurals, and the sociological and other factors which have increased the use of them. I found the full presentation extremely interesting. It is really balanced, and touches on all the various factors - eg the celeb culture we have nowadays, where high profile women have csections or very medicalised births and publicise this widely. It's actually very rare to read an article in Hello or OK! where a celeb says, 'Yes, I had a natural birth, it was messy and painful'. All these details are factors in why highly medicalised births have become the norm for many mothers.

Shona spurtle (love your name btw - where doesh shur shean hide hish shpurtle?)
I totally agree with you that there should always be an assessment and challange of accepted ideas - its hard to do for both institutions and individuals, but asking - why are we doing this? what does it achive? is it really appropriate? but that also includes the new ideas, improvements and (horrible word!) modernisation you want to bring in too.

Monkeytrousers I think said it much more consisely than I managed - many people are turned off by the romanticised view of childbirth by some advocates

My experience of the natural birth movement is very much one of paternalism and magical thinking: somewhat like a cult!
you must educate yourself with the 'right' sources, you follow these rules and prohibitions (eg diet etc) you concentrate on positive birth affirmations, dont think about possible problems, (it makes them happen,) dont prepare for any change in plans , any alternative type of birth or any problematic scenario, thats like admitting failure, you will of course be able to enjoy, not feel or at least cope witht he pain, (hell, you might even orgasm) its a climactic defining moment for you as a woman, use your intuition, its not a rational thing...
The blame is on the woman if she fails to follow this script too - obviously she didnt try hard enough, her body was defective, she didnt do it right etc, and many women beat themselves up with these sticks when the promised experience fails to be delivered.

You dont need to buy into it but these ideas ore often presented when women are vulnerable and at a lifechanging point, (rather like cults again)and can be pleasingly nonspecifically 'holistic' and 'spiritual'.

I am mixing a lot of threads of argument here but its a complex subject. I really would love women to have the educationa nd support they need to make the choices that are informed by their circumstances and lives, and that meet the specific needs of them and their families.

actually, having read his presentation i change my opinion.. he doesn't at all come across as ridiculing those who take pain relief, in fact he clearly states pain relief is necessary and beneficial for some. he simply calls for a change in the treatment of a mother throughout the entire pregnancy and birth with the aim of better reassuring, educating and enpowering women so that they can make their own choice during labour.

the journo really took liberties with interpretation on this one

In some regards I agree with him. I think that a large number of women are terrified of childbirth and the associated pain that goes with it...but this won't change until we entirely change how we deal with pregnancy and labour.

I didn't have any ante natal classes as they were full, ditto the visit to the maternity wards
I saw my midwife once and then another midwife as my original had taken a sabattical.

During labour they were so understaffed and busy that they had to shut the ward. I was left alone with a student and was frankly frightened because I didn't know what to expect.

Had I had continuity of care from an experienced midwife and a well staffed hospital my experience would have been much easier to cope with and my expectations would have been managed.

Of course women are frightened of the pain but they are equally frightened of the lack of support and the unknown. Until that changes he can do one

policywonk, im not saying that people shouldnt experience these things, and I am very glad you had a good experience

just that this sort of social construct of motherhood might not work for all, and perhaps mothers should be trusted to define what childbirth means to them and what their priorites are?

I think that for vast numbers of women, giving birth is the opposite of the positive "experience" they had hoped for. Something like 80% (?) of women have their vaginas RIPPED APART by the event. And plenty are left with long-term damage and pain.

We're healthier than we used to be, so our babies are fatter than they used to be - maybe women are more scared of childbirth for good reason? Maybe it's because they KNOW WHAT HAPPENS?

Birth, death - it's all pretty sucky if you ask me, don't see the point in glamorising it. Yes some people might leave the world having visions of Our Lady coming down the mountain to take them home but most will be in pain and miserable. Birth is pretty similar. I think we need to be honest about that.

hear hear morningpaper. we are all grown up enough to make our own decisions about what we consider to be the best way of dealing with what can be a thoroughly painful, messy, difficult, long and lifethreatening process.

So give us as much information and choice as possible, and then let us CHOOSE.

Thanks for that last post pinktulips.

I'm wondering how many people have actually read the whole presentation? The newspaper extract puts a totally different slant on it. Follow this up with an OP which refers to the doctor as a 'tosser' and you've suddenly got a load of banshees jumping on the bandwagon and screeching 'Dreadful male doctor, how dare he?!'

If you read the presentation, you see that the doctor is actually recommending far better ante natal, and birth support for women. He is talking about a holistic approach which encourages women to feel empowered and content with their birth experience. He is against medical practices which treat women like a piece of meat, stick them on a bed, pump them full of drugs etc.

I think it's a superb presentation, which looks honestly and openly at all aspects of giving birth. It is also very honest about the pain. Look at the slide which describes the pain of childbirth from the perspective of a mother in a birth centre. If you read the entire thing, and don't just jump to conclusions through a one-sided newspaper article, you'll see that the doctor is absolutely in favour of reforming the birth experience so that many more women are happy with it.

Oh, no, we must blame poor men, nevermind that, if it were men who gave birth, this wouldn't even be a discussion at all.

There wouldn't be all these schools of thought that shitting a melon out their penis is empowering or confidence-building and should be kept as 'natural' as possible and not medicalised as it's an important right of passage.

Cost-cutting? Ha!

Yes, childbirth is a natural process. Which is currently killing 1 in a 100 women in some countries. In others, it's leaving them with fistulas which cause them to become outcasts in their own societies.

THAT is the reality of childbirth.

Fair enough if you want to go for crystals and candles and have an orgasm during contractions.

But please, don't force others to swallow and live with your beliefs on how they should deal with pain.

We mustn't blame, that was meant to say.

Oh FGS that's exactly the kind of response that makes me despair. The article doesn't mention crystals,candles or orgasms. It's an intelligent, well researched presentation which calls for BETTER ante natal support, and support during birth. I for one am glad that I knew that an epidural would increase the risks of further medical intervention, forceps, stitches, vaginal injury. Not to mention the increased risks to my baby. That was part of my informed choice to book into a midwife led unit where I felt I would receive the kind of personal care I wanted, rather than be pumped with drugs.

I don't find labelling childbirth a right of passage intelligent at all, violethill, and yes, I have no read all the links.

Violethill my judgement of 'tosser' was based on the newspaper article I had read. Now someone has posted a link to his actual words which I shall go and read. I might change my opinion as a result of that. I don't think it's fair to imply that I was unleashing some screaming banshee advocating the hating of men.

I think 'good for you' if I hear someone has not had any pain relief during their labour. I didn't want it either, did all the yoga and natural breathing techniques and positive thinking blah blah possible. But my first baby was premature and in breech which meant a c-section, and the second didn't progress for over 24 hours by which time I needed pain relief just to have a rest if nothing else. And by the way, I was also booked into a midwife-led unit but babies tend to make their minds up about these things rather than the mothers-to-be being in control.

I will go and read his presentation now.

there weren't any crystals or candles at my births expat and it was about as far from orgasmic as possible

it's not an arguement against medicated birth, it's proposal to better educate women during the course of their pragnancy so that they can make an informed decision.

i know several women who had epidurals pushed on them during labour and regretted it... surely they had as much right to be given the birth they wanted as those who say they wanted an epidural but couldn't get it?

childbirth is a right of passage in exactly the same way puberty is... it's an irreversable change to our physical, emotional and mental states and shouldn't be underestimated as such.

TBH, this single quote marks him as an ignorant twat

"Pain in labour is a purposeful, useful thing, which has quite a number of benefits, such as preparing a mother for the responsibility of nurturing a newborn baby."

exactly, soupy. i found his presentation pedantic and patronising in tone to women.

it's not surprising, however, to find such misogynistic attitudes among health professionals, unfortunately.

Giving birth is as old as time, and when I see a man do it I will listen to him tell me how to

I didn't have any labour pain when I had dd as it was a planned cs and I cared for her a hell of a lot better than I did with her big brother (12 hour labour + em cs).

I don't think the 0bserver dared come to MN for quotes for this. We'd have put too many swear words in our comments .