Teacher questioned over attempted murder of pupil

[Frasersmum123]

This happened near to me

poor man?

he could have killed him.

There is no way that I am justifying what that teacher did, as I have said in my posts and I object to anyone trying to say otherwise. I have not commented on this particular case.

What it DOES highlight however, are the failings of schools to protect both pupils and teacher.

They put that teacher in a classroom, on his own, after he'd been off with stress. The school should be prosecuted too, because the situation was avoidable. The school have failed to protect here and should also take the blame.

I have to say having a 15yr old son ,im suprised that more teachers dont go 'postal'. Whatever happened i hope the child recovers ,14 yrs is still too young to lose your life regardless of what he may or may not have done . I do feel sorry for the teacher in that a moment of madness will cost him his job,pension and probably his freedom.wouldnt be in the least bit suprised if this man commits suicide on remand

his moment of "madness" might cost a child his life and a familty a son. the child will be affected by this for the rest of his life, if he has one.
so ........

I went to a school where kids were rude to teachers and even chucked chairs, we had one teacher who picked a pupil up and threw him out of the class, I can't really say I blamed him as they put up with abuse day after day.

Obviously something has gone seriously wrong here, and it may well be that the school/governing body/LEA/Health Authority are accountable to some degree if the teacher was declared fit to teach when he wasn't. None of us know the details.

And it's equally obvious that of course no pupil should ever be assaulted by a teacher.

However, I do agree with those who say that maybe this sad case will highlight the ludicrous position thousands of teachers are put in on a daily basis. I am a teacher. Over the course of my career I have known many colleagues who have been abused, verbally, physically, had their property stolen, damaged, had threats made against them etc. I think part of the solution here has to be for schools to make far more use of the criminal justice system against pupils who abuse and assault teachers.

I have known only two teachers who have 'fought back'. One was a younger colleague from many years ago who taught a 15 year old girl who threatened to 'cut up' the teacher's young child. This teacher got the police to press charges against the girl, even though the school were keen to get her to 'reslove the situation amicably' because the girl concerned wasn't very bright and came from a difficult background! Yeah right, so that makes it ok to make threats to kill does it?

The second case was someone I know who as a deputy head, punished a lad for bringing alcohol into school. The pupil subsequently made a malicious allegation of a sexual nature against the deputy head. The allegation was dismissed out of hand by the police who investigated, but the stress on the deputy was enormous. For most teachers who are victims of malicious allegations, the fact that they don't end up being charged is usually enough - they leave the matter at that and are relieved to leave it behind. Thank goodness, this deputy had the strength of mind to NOT leave it at that. He successfully took action against the boy for making a malicious allegation. The boy concerned was very bright, and looking forward to University and a successful career - let's hope having a criminal record will now put paid to that.

Schools need to exercise a proper duty of care to their staff - and IMO this means being far more prepared to involve the police. You wouldn't get away with swearing out, spitting at, pushing or hitting a passer by in the street. Why should anyone get away with it just because they are in a classroom?

Whilst being concerned for the boy and really hoping he pulls through, I do lso hope that this incident will highlight the real cincerns in many schools these days.

Teachers in some schools are under a lot of stress these days, much more so thn the general public realise. And I know other occuopations have stress too, but there is something about working with teenagers that really is stressful.

I chose to work in a prison with murderers, rapists, abusers, etc than to return back to secondary school teaching. Pupil behaviour in some schools is out of control and management is often poor when it comes to supporting teachers when pupils are misbehaving. There are no real discipline routes for pupils and they know it.

I was phyiscally abused by a 13 year old boy when I was 7 months pregnant. I asked him - am not a shouter and it was polite - to get on with his work. He flipped. He stood up, grabbed his chair and slammed it hard into my pregnany stomach. He then marched out of the classroom smashing two door windows on his way out. His punishment? a few days at hhome, no apology, no parents in - he was in my very next lesson with that class, laughing and joking about it. He was a nightmare in every class and knew he could get away with it. School management don't like it if you take things further and were so anti taking it outside of school. It was assault, but no one cares. I chose to go on mat leave instead; the easiest option.

Violethill and Hulababy: stories like yours make me very depressed. For some of these children school is THE way out of poverty and deprivation. And this is how they're treating the very people trying to help them. Very, very sad.

I don't think the child 'deserved' anything. I don't even have a vast amount of sympathy for the man who injured him so severely, despite being a teacher and having of course dealt with abuse myself over the years. I think it is however possible to view the teacher as culpable and still to question procedures in place in schools to help teacher to manage and more importantly reduce stress. The people who beat baby P were responsible for his death, but there were almost certainly failings by others which stopeed it being prevented IYSWIM. And this issue in teaching might be viewed in a similar way.

I find myself in a contradictory position. When I first heard the report, I looked for 'excuses' - he had had a stroke, personality change etc - to reassure myself that I wouldn't respond in the same way. Now I've done that, I don't want other people to do the same. I want the issue to workplace stress to be addressed. And I think that is compatible with placing the blame on the attacker and not the victim.

Partially agree, TFM. Obviously blame should be placed on the attacker,and on the systems which should have supported this man if they failed in any way.

But I also stand by my point that if the pupil had been abusing the teacher in any way whatsoever, then that also places him in the wrong. Not deserving of attack, but wrong to abuse another person. If it is true (and I am aware that reports are not necessarily accurate) but if it were true that a number of pupils in that class were chanting an abusive song at the teacher, then actually they are all verbal abusers. Let's tell it like it is.

I think the outcome was so far beyond what is a reasonable response that I cannot bring it into consideration. I just can't. If, if, what has been reported is true, then it would be absolutely appalling behaviour on the part of the children, and that behaviour should always be very, very firmly dealt with, but my God...

But the problem is that behaviour such as that described is not firmly dealt with.

For example, it would appear that the child who assaulted Hulababy was most certainly not firmly dealt with.

I know that. I'm a teacher. I said in my other post that I want things to change. I just don't go from that to any sympathy for a person who uses extreme physical violence in response to abuse.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the teacher's reaction was a 'reasonable response'! No way!

But things have gone so far in some schools with some pupils that I think a very forceful response is needed. Schools should be far more ready to push for charges to be pressed against pupils who abuse and assault staff. Apart from anything else, how is it possibly helpful to the pupil to believe that they can get away with this type of behaviour? Once they leave school, they'd be arrested and charged for verbally abusing someone, damaging their property, threatening or assaulting them. Why the big difference just because they are sat in a classroom?

I really don't think there's much we disagree on there.

While I have every sympathy with the teacher, is it not the case that "a nagging wife" is no longer considered a adequate defence in domestic abuse situations. This is presumably not because a nagging wife cannot say things at least as damaging as those reportedly said by those pupils. But that the law recognises a duty inumbent on all of us to get out of a potentially violent situation.

In the old system there were some incredibly sadistic teachers, who thought it was part of their job to make fun of and belittle pupils. My Dad did his teaching training under one who proudly announced that he regularly had students leaving the classroom in tears. Indeed there are still teachers around who make cruel and hurtful remarks about pupils. Would any of us see that as a sufficient reason for a pupil to assault a teacher? Yes, I know teachers do get assaulted, but most of us don't think that's right, do we? And most of us don't think it's right regardless of what the teacher said.

The Guardian article clearly states that the boy intervened in an argument between a girl and the teacher. If people are saying here that they can understand why teachers snap due to viciousness of children that has nothing to do with this particular case, as far as we know. Rather revolting to infer the child now in intensive care with possibly his life ruined was a nightmare child in the classroom when there is no evidence of that at all.

I think this thread is indicative of the worst of the internet really, albeit perhaps unintentionally. Lots and lots of speculation about a horrific and tragic incident, of which we know very few factual details, with many people projecting their own experiences onto the said situation in order to fill in the blanks. In the process a child, who we do know may be facing the prospect of lifelong brain damage, is being painted as the architect of his own downfall by many, when there is no concrete evidence of that whatsoever. Shameful, imo.

And again according to the Guardian article the man didn't just 'snap' and throw the weight at the boy, he then went up to the boy and hit him in the head with the weight again.

Quite, Scummy.

I don't really have much to add, and of course it goes without saying that everyone hopes the boy will pull through but...

I hope to God that someone is authority will now look at the situation that led up to this horrific event.

To add to Hula and VH's stories. I know of a case where a teacher slapped a 15yr old pupil who had held a Bunsen Burner to the teacher's hand. He slapped him in a mixture of shock and pain. He was sacked. He may have saved his job had he been willing to apologise to the boy and say it was a momentary lapse of judgement (advise of union) but he refused saying he felt his actions to be a reasonable response to the violent act of a 15yr old. Such a waste of a highly talented and dedicated science teacher.

We need a better response system to this sort of behaviour. Teachers need to feel that they are safe at work and that violence towards them will be treated as it would be by the police.

I can easily imagine that if I had been assaulted in the way Hula was, my dh would be capable of serious 'pre-meditated' harm towards whoever had done it, whether they were a minor or not. And dh is a very calm and laid-back person.

As teachers, yes, we learn very early on that we have to be the grown up in horrible confrontations and we have to try to remain calm and be able to walk away. Many people who are not teachers would find it impossible to react in this way if confronted by a teenager/child in that way.

It does seem that this teacher 'flipped' and it also seems that his health made it difficult for him to act in the way he may well have done in the past. If he was a 'psycho' he wouldn't have lasted in teaching as long as he did. Sadly, if someone's career in teaching is that stressful, they are FAR more likely for it to impact on them rather than anyone else: stress, ill-health, depression, maybe even suicide.

I have been sorely tempted to slap the odd pupil on very rare occasions and I'm sure I'm not the only one. But I never have. Instead I've maybe left the situation and cried with frustration and anger. In 16 years of teaching it's maybe happened twice or three times (having violent thoughts, that is). If I somehow was in a situation where that piece of my brain helps me walk away or disassociate myself from the confrontation was not there (perhaps like this teacher was suffering from, post-stroke) then it could happen. It's very very sad for all concerned... and also very scary.

Rhubarb I agree with you vis the school?s culpability here.
I hope this case leads the education industry to examine the piss-poor job many schools are doing, of ensuring that the working conditions of their staff are acceptable. The levels of disrespect and danger that teachers are expected to accept as normal, would be suing matters in other jobs.
Viz the Bunsen burning case, why wasn?t the pupil required to apologise to him for an attempted criminal assault?

I feel really strongly that it?s not just teachers who arenot being protected here, it?s other children. I don?t want my children to be sitting in a classroom where throwing chairs and attacking teachers is seen as OK ? even if they?re the ones doing it (fingers crossed that they won?t be). I don?t want to send my children into an environment where they learn that this behaviour is normal and as a parent I have the right to expect that teachers will be protected by their employers, not just because they have a right to be protected in their own right, but because that protects my child ? and me, for that matter, if my DS learns that chucking chairs is normal, he might decide to chuck them at me at home, mightn?t he?

poface - the different newspapers and media are all suggesting different versions of what did and didn't happen, who was involved and why. The role of the child seems to vary a good deal in how he became involved and hurt. Itr has been newspaper reports that have called his own behaviour, before the incident into question. The teacher's previous behaviour has also been described in many different ways, from being a bit "nutty professor" to an excellent teacher before this.

TBH until tehe full story is know it is impossible but to sumise and sugegst examples really.

I don't think anyone anywhere has suggetsed the boy desered to be in this posiition.

But I do think some people, esp teachers, have considered how this might have come about happening. I think if you liken it to some domestic abuse situations where verbal assault is the ongoing catalyst, it kind of similar.

Poface and Scummy are correct. We have no basis that this boy's behaviour was even provocative.

Something does need to be done about violent behaviour towards teachers but we have no evidence that this is what has happened here.

Having said that, clearly violence towards teachers is beoming a problem though of course, still quite rare. Something does need to be done.