Religion in hospitals - docs want to chat about god

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blimey

This has really surprised me and is not something I would be at all happy about. I don't want the people who are caring for me when I am ill wittering on about god and my spiritual wellbeing. I am an athiest. I do not want my midwife asking if she can pray for me for example

My hospital has a chaplain and a prayer room - you can ask for people of whatever religion to come and see to you if you want to talk spiritual stuff. Why on earth would you want your nurse or doctor chatting on uninvited?

I also notice they talk about Christianity - but many staff in hospitals are muslim, jewish, buddhist, well all creeds and faiths are covered. My mum even worked in theatre with a jehovahs witness!

So naturally if the christians can spread the word on the words all the other religions could too...

This sounds like a dreadful idea - there is already provision for those who want it, why give free rein to all and sundry to bring it up all the time? A lot of religions have a tihng which says their followers should spread the word or convert others - the more fervent people wouldn't be able to help themselves would they? And they have the best audience in the world - a captive audience who may be facing their own mortality.

Any thoughts? Anyone think this is a good idea?

I think I'm going to have that sign made for my front door, as well!

Sorry, but it's just not professional, is it? I wouldn't expect their political beliefs to enter the GP surgery, either.

TBH, the proposal to allow GPs and other HCPs to introduce their faiths and pray for patients made me think 'blimey - that's a bit Medieval, isn't it?' It just doesn't have a place in modern medical practice. I have nothing against a GP having a private pray for me as their patient if they don't tell me, but if they said they'd pray for me, I'd feel horribly awkward and resentful that they were bringing private beliefs to bear on my problem.

And a bit short-changed, frankly! Cure me, don't pray for me!

How far could this go - if some gp's dont want to sanction abortions for superstition/religious reasons, then what happens if a gp will not give antinatel care to an unmarried woman? How far will this be pushed that beliefs of a medical perosn bing payed with public money allow them not to care for a patient?.

If a gp or other medic wnats to work gor the public sector then I want them to leave there own beliefs at the door and not mix them with my rights as a patient.

Just as I would not verbally abuse a medical person I want their behaviour to be respectful of me as a patient.

Religion/superstition has not place in NHS

I have first-hand of experience of a GP's religious beliefs being at odds with my own.

I had recently moved to a new area and registered with a practice as I was expecting my first child. I asked him about antenatal tests only to be told "You don't want to worry yourself with any of that as if it showed anything you wouldn't consider termination would you?".

I was totally astounded at this and immediately re-registered with another GP. I found out later that the first practice was that of 2 GP brothers who were Catholics and also undertook missionary work.

This was 20 years ago but I have always felt that those GPs, with such strong religious beliefs, could influence a patient at a troubling time in their life into making a decision that may not be in his / her best interests.

As a 17 year old I started having seizures. At one point it got so bad I was hospitalised for 8 days. On one of the three wards I was on a Dr came to talk to me (I believe she had noticed me when I was on a post operative geriatric side ward). She started asking questions about my seizures and seem quite caring. When I explained they started a little while after I had a 1st trimester miscarriage she sighed and said 'Ah that explains it, God is punishing you for having premarital sex'. When I said I didn't believe in a God she then smiled and said 'Exactly!'. She was a Geriatric Registrar. What she thought she was doing talking to me a 17 year old with neuro problems I don't know@@@@@

I didn't know what to do as I was not accompanied by my parents, I didn't know who to complain to about this matter and it would have been just my word against hers. She was not in anyway responsible for my care as I was under a Neurologist not a Geriatrics specialist. It made me feel incredibly vunerable at a time when I was in need of support not to be used to prop up someone's view of what god does to sinners and unbelievers. It's so nice to think that not only did god was punishing me for premarital sex/not believing by killing my baby, he also thought fit (ha I made a funny ) to give me epilepsy too.

If HCPs are allowed to approach patients with a view to proletysing then I will find getting any health care very difficult.

People have been expressing anxiety about BNP members being teachers or health care professionals quite a bit lately, on the grounds that they might not be able to leave their political prejudices outside the workplace. My personal take on that is the same as on the superstition-peddling - believe and think whatever old cock you like, but keep your trap shut about it at work. If you can't keep your personal issues out of the workplace then you shouldn't be in any kind of job that involves direct contact with the public unless it;s in a recognized viewpoint-pushing organisation of some sort.

agree with solidgold

as a Christian I may well pray for someone I have met in the course of my work (I pray about all sorts of things) but I will not waste my employer's time by informing them of the fact

I am a nurse in the nhs and do have a faith, I have no problem with not discussing it with patients and even when asked (which is rare) I tend to be evasive and suggest more appropriate people to talk to. Having said that I have far more pressing things to talk to patients about - like their healthcare- to have the time to talk spiritual matters.

My role , as with medics and other hcps, is to respect the patients beliefs not peddle my own either verbally or otherwise. It is not policy within the nhs to do this nor should it be as we work in a multicultural society.

I honestly wonder where these people who think they have got the time to discuss spirituality work. tbh I think they need jobs in deprived inner city areas. they wouldn't have the time to think about faith then as they would be too busy trying to survive the day.

NO WAY!

Doctors are there to look after my body. A vicar or someone similar is there to look after my spirit. I wouldn't want a vicar coming in to do an impromtu diagnosis of my illness so do not see why a doctor should feel capable of poaching on the vicar's patch either.

Donnymouse, as for 'hard hearts' remember that religion doesn't just mean christianity. How would you feel if you visited a child in hospital and found a doctor telling them how Satan could cure them if they swore to follow him?

You have to remember that all hcps are legally allowed, for whatever reason, not to participate in/refer for top. Whether that is for ethical, political, religious reasons etc, there is a "conscience clause" in the abortion act (1967?) that means they don't have to end a life if they regard it as a life.

Here's a question. If assisted dying was to become law in the UK, would you insist that every GP/other doc had to be prepared to offer that service? Cos you would simply haemmorage doctors in that case.

I agree very strongly that religion should be left at the door. I'm a teacher, and I despair at the amount of prosletysing that seems to be allowed in schools these days. I don't like the prayer at the end of Beavers. I'm a Happy Clappy Baptist, go to church most weeks, my kids go to Sunday School and a midweek club at church - but that is what church is for - its not what schools, hospitals, GP practices etc are for (and tbh I think that the poster - forget who, sorry- who talked about her "Christian" GP Practice should consider reporting them - they must be breaking a whole load of employment laws)

But there have to be ethics in medicine/nursing etc. While there are still strong views on both sides about things like abortion and euthanasia, then legally binding protection should be respected.

weegiemum, it sounds like we're agreeing on the principle, but it's not just performing an abortion that they are refusing is it.

I mean we have not wanting to refer a patient to another doctor who will do an abortion.

Not wanting to allow antenatal tests since they might lead to termination.

Refusing contraception because that's against their conscience too.

Some Muslim medical students are refusing to attend lectures or answer exam questions on alcohol-related or sexually transmitted diseases because they claim it offends their religious beliefs.

If they get a patient with a bad liver they will probably misdiagnose him because they didn't study that.

Suppose it's against someone's religion to dance. Can they refuse to treat a sprained ankle injured doing 'the devils work?

I think that if someone cannot seperate their religion and their work they should go into another profession.

Does a doctor who does not agree with abortion have a legal obligation to refer a patient to another physician who can make a referral to the appropriate resource (sorry, I don't know who actually performs the TOP here because am foreign by birth and in the US a lot of people go to clinics)?

The Loose Women are currently discussing this issue.

I don't know if they do. Doctors have the right not to perform terminbations of they don't want to.

Whatever the case, plenty of doctors do this.

I personally think this has been sensationalised by the media .However i would love your opinions on what happened to me at work recently ,bearing in mind that i am not a religous person. We had a patient ,a young man ,who was dying , his family as you can imagine were devastated . I went into the room to check on both the patient ,to make sure he was pain free and not in distress and also to reassure the family that i was there if they needed me .The family were very religous ,in that they had a strong faith. The hospital chaplain entered the room and the family asked me to join them in a prayer . Now would it have been ok for me as a non religous person to say 'sorry but im not hanging about to listen to your superstitous crap' or was i right to join them ,because it felt like the comapssionate and caring thing to do in the circumstances .
By the way i have never ever heard any of my colleagues bar the chaplain offer to pray or even mention thier (many varied) religous backgrounds and beliefs , possibly because we are all too bloody busy

Well it must have been tricky if caught by surprise. I think you had the option to say "I'll give you some privacy" and leave though I understand how you felt.

Of course strictly speaking they were wrong to assume that a stranger shared their beliefs. Of course you'd want to make allowances because they were upset, but maybe if everyone had it previously drummed into them that theirs isn't the only opinion/belief in the universe it wouldn't arise.

Since they didn't know what religion if any you had they could have been insulting you terribly by suggesting you might want to.

The only safe way is keep religion private and not offer it to others.

I've not had time to read the whole thread, but this sounds like a bad idea. Knowing that someone is praying for you may be bad for your health:

here - "CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from coronary artery bypass graft, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications"

The physicians oath is 'First do no harm' so FGS if they really feel compelled to pray for someone, do it in private!

Don't think you are in what is termed a 'vulnerable position' Bump. People aren't professional patients, hospital workers are professionals

Bump: but just supposing they had been Christians and you were a Muslim, or vice versa - or at least one party followed a myth system that is hostile to other competing myth systems to the extent of being really offended by being asked to share in a ritual dance or chant or whatever? I think in a case like that it would be equally appropriate for the health professional to join in or to politely and discreetly remove him/herself from the room.

I think that you were right to join them, and I would have done the same. But I might (depending on the skill of the chaplin) have felt very uncomfortable doing so.

I generally agree with the idea that religion should be kept out of the workplace (and totally out of schools) but I do have one issue here.

Doctors (clinicians in general really) treating the body only is really not a good model. Returning to the days when doctors thought about their patients as "the stomach ulcer" or "the perforated lung" etc would really not be a good idea. Especially in general practice the idea of treating the whole patient is very important (especially bearing in mind that many GP consultations are about mental health). Many patients have a long term relationship with their clinicians and wish to be treated as individuals in a holistic manner, and it is something that the NHS has been trying to get better at for years (especially in areas like palliative care where caring for the spirit as well as the body is an important part of treating patients as humans).

I agree (mostly) with Spamhead. Better guidelines for all staff would be a good idea, but the assumption should always be not to talk about religion. I have worked with some very religious people, and I do think that they can find it difficult not to speak about spiritual matters, and if you do not wish to be forceful (or it is not appropriate to do so) that can be very awkward. Especially if they are sincere and lovely people.

On the medical students front it is worth pointing out that both GMC and BMA stated clearly that there were no exemptions, and that students would fail their exams if they missed out sections of the syllabus or objected to examinations (as they should).

Monkeytrousers i didnt think of myself as being in a vunerable posistion at all ,i just wanted to put a scenario across that was from the other side of the spectrum.
As for muslim versus christians ,i have seen a muslim Dr hold the hand of a very sick elderly christian patient ,whilst she said a prayer ,he didnt speak out loud but by simply holding her hand at that time at her request ,he showed the sort of compassion that i wish all Drs and nusres showed .I dont agree with any health care professional discussing religion in an innappropriate manner with any patient ,but as health care profesionals we are often involved in conversations that involve a god or spirituality .

Absolutely, it's part of your training isn't it. Patients dont get training though, that's what I mean. That's what makes them vulnerable. It should be them who makes the first move/gesture before deus ex machina makes an appearance

You see, while I agree that health care professionals should be trained to handle the religious requests of patients with diplomacy and kindness they should also be trained to remember that lots of people are free from religion and do not want it shoved at them when they are ill or in pain.

This is just a very quick post as I really have to do the washing up!

I practise a faith. However if a medic with different religious beliefs offered to pray for me, I'd probably say thanks but no thanks. And then that would be the end of it.

Why can't the atheists on this thread do the same?

IME people who have no faith have a much harder time listening to people who have a faith. I've often had convos with people who are talking what I could classify as religious 'nonsense', but I just tell them that I don't connect with what they're saying but respect the fact that they believe it.

MrsMH, well, mainly because the sort of people who are agitating for a legal right to make crap-peddling pests of themselves are the ones who will barge in brandishing their superstition without any consideration for the fact that a person who is ill, in pain or in distress doesnt want to hear it and might be further upset by it (if I was about to have some complicated, delicate medical procedure performed, having someone witter on about the power of prayer would scare the crap out of me as I would wonder if they were actually offering me superstition rather than medical competence...)