Religion in hospitals - docs want to chat about god

[LovelyTinOfSpam]

blimey

This has really surprised me and is not something I would be at all happy about. I don't want the people who are caring for me when I am ill wittering on about god and my spiritual wellbeing. I am an athiest. I do not want my midwife asking if she can pray for me for example

My hospital has a chaplain and a prayer room - you can ask for people of whatever religion to come and see to you if you want to talk spiritual stuff. Why on earth would you want your nurse or doctor chatting on uninvited?

I also notice they talk about Christianity - but many staff in hospitals are muslim, jewish, buddhist, well all creeds and faiths are covered. My mum even worked in theatre with a jehovahs witness!

So naturally if the christians can spread the word on the words all the other religions could too...

This sounds like a dreadful idea - there is already provision for those who want it, why give free rein to all and sundry to bring it up all the time? A lot of religions have a tihng which says their followers should spread the word or convert others - the more fervent people wouldn't be able to help themselves would they? And they have the best audience in the world - a captive audience who may be facing their own mortality.

Any thoughts? Anyone think this is a good idea?

'What if the person in question was a pagan and said "I'll slaughter a chicken for you"? Would you brush that off too?'

Some practitioners of voodoo or santeria do perform animal sacrifices, but it's a myth that this is a universal pagan practice .

Even if you were a Christian you should be rightly pissed off if your GP asked if they could pray for you. Wasn't there a scientific study that showed that patients who knew they were being prayed for actually did worse? (The hypothesis was that the psychological effect of knowing someone was praying for you was that you were actually much more seriously ill than you thought and that was considered the only avenue left!)

expat I knew aomeone was going to say that but couldn't think of what religions they do do that stuff. Voodoo maybe? Or have I been watching too much bond...

fatslag nothing trollish I agree with you completely.

Interesting I had the jehovahs witnesses around for the first time the other day waving a leaflet with a pregnant woman and something about abortion. They told me they were in the neighbourhood to discuss "god's views on this issue". I patted my 36 week stomach and said "ah well you don't need to talk to me hahaha" or some other comment but didn't get the barrell of laughs back i was expecting...

I suppose my point is that the christian people seem to think it's OK to refuse to do things to do with their faith but what about things to do with other faiths? What about jehovahs witness surgeons not giving blood transfusions? What about exclusive brethren refusing to use modern technology? What about an osbtetric specialist or midwife refusing to see anyone unmarried?

Same goes for the praying and offering spiritual support. Christian is fine but not other religions? Which ones? Where do you draw the line?

It just goes on and on. There should be no opt outs at all IMO. If you don't want to do the whole job, do a different job. If you want to go around offering to pray for people, become a spiritual leader, offer your services to the hospital as an extension of your role. Don't approach people in hospital randomly asking them about their faith for crying out loud.

Oh FFS expat didn't read your post properly. Not too much bond them, I am expert on world religions. it is confirmed.

Expat - when I say Christian bucketheads I am referring to a specific sub-set of Christians. Ie the ones who are behind this and other fuckwit news non-stories. They are alwasy bleating about being 'discriminated against for their christian beliefs' when what they mean by that is 'they are not being given special license to inflict their supsertitious crap on other people. THis particular story is that one of these bucketheads is trying to claim that human rights are being infringed because they are not allowed to crap-peddle at work - they are trying to claim the right to bother all their patients with christian bullshit, whatever the patients think. There isn;t anything much wrong with a medical health practitioner offering to behead a chicken or do a headstand on behalf of a patient who shares a particular superstition with that health practitioner - plenty of medical practitioners adhere to one or other myth system, just as many of them vote for one or another political party, and don't inappropriately pester their patients with it.

Interesting thread! Lots of agner and lots of half baked half truth being pushed around by the sound of it. It certainly seems to have gotten some people's ire up at least.

To inject some sanity - scientific research is ambiguous on prayer - several meta-studies show that it is inconclusive whether prayer per se has any clinical impact. However, there was a recent meta-study (i.e. an over view and analysis of around 100 other studies in the same or very similar areas) in the Journal of Advanced nursing that suggested that praying with a patient who has a faith can have a measurable impact in reducing stress anxiety and improving the symptoms of acute, reactive depression. Not conclusive proof, but worth a good GP or nurse bearing in mind.

As for this BMA Motion, I confess I have not read it in detail, but digging a bit behind the hysteria, all it says is that health professionals should be able to ask a patient if they would like prayer without fear of censure and disciplinary action, if it is deemed appropriate - i.e. on the basis that they have expressed a faith or concern that is spiritual in nature. I think it should go further and say that appropriate training and national guidelines on providing spiritual care are needed in England. Scotland's NHS has just such training and guidelines, and allegedly Wales does too (though no-one I know there has ever seen sight of them). Interesting that all the negative stories seem to come from England, isn't it?

As for all of that being the chaplains' job - it is and should be, but they are usually thin on the ground and, from experience of people I know in the trade, most nurses are pretty poor at referring patients to a Chaplain, mainly because they have no idea how to even asses if the patient has a spiritual need.

And spiritual does not always have to mean religious - just because you are an atheist does not mean you do not have existential needs and questions in a time of crisis - you just frame them in a non-religious manner, and deal with them in non-religious ways. I've been to humanist funerals that had plenty of spiritual stuff going on. Whether there is a case for humanist chaplains is an interesting one, but to date I have never met one.

I think anyone sane would oppose patients being pressurised and being agressively proselytised - ethically that would be very, very wrong, and it's a no-brainer. However, that is not what this BMA motion is talking about. It is easy to fly off the handle when we see these things (often poorly) report in the press, and not dig out the details, nuances and facts.

OK, that's my tu'penny's worth. I'll shut up and take the flak like a gentleman..

No and no and no. No way do I want medical professionals asking me if I want prayer with my paracetamol. If I'm hurting and feeling scared, the LAST thing I want is someone asking me if I want a prayer. I wouldn't want to have to be polite to them (did ya guess? ), I would want to push them out of the window and then report them.

As you say, there are plenty of non-religious ways of expressing concern for "existential needs", how about the medical pros stick to them? Why this NEED to offer "spiritual comfort" when patients may not want it?

Keep religion out of the public sphere.

Look AFAIK the only times medical professionals have been reprimanded for crap-peddling has been when they have overstepped the mark, been offensive or just annoying in pestering patients who had expressed no desire for superstition-sharing. There isn;t anything wrong with a bit of mutually-appreciated mumbo-jimbo, but the reporting comes from the bucketheads who are trying to push their own crap-peddling agenda.

I've never brought faith up with patients but on many occasions patients have brought it up with me because it is an important part of their lives and affects how they cope wiuth illness. With the recent cases about faith and medicine it would be nice to have some backing to participate in these conversations without feeling uncomfortably that I shouldn't.

And therein you both have hit the nail on the head. Of course you don't want to have someone's beliefs fosited on you. No-one has suggested that is appropriate, not has abn=nyone even hinted tht it is appropraite to foist anything anyone who is not looking for it? Why do you think that?

This is not about you, it is about people who actually might appreciate the offer of prayer. That's all. Nothing to be threatened by, not now or ever.

As for the only medical professionals being disciplined are those who over stepped the mark, I know of many, many more cases than are in the media - some have overstepped the mark, and needed to be corrected, some acted in good faith and got slapped down when some thoughtful responses from management were needed. None need have happened if better training and guidelines on these issues were in place. You may not like that, but some patients do, and sensible guidelines and good training means you all get the care you need and deserve without either being forced into a corner by a zealous evangelist, or having your very real needs and questions ignored because the health professional is too poorly trained, or scared of being disciplined, or not sure where the guidelines and boundaries are.

Where are these patients who are being pressurised and proselytised? They don't exist I suspect - apart from the odd case (none that you know from the press by the way - ones I know from my own work), it just does not happen. You fear something that is not out there and is not happening.

How do you know who "might actually appreciate the offer of prayer"? It's an offer that simply isn't appropriate.

If you know a patient well, know that they have a faith, or have raised the issue with you, then you know it might be appropriate. It is good clinical skills to recognise not just the physical, psychological and social needs of your patient, but the spiritual as well.

When I trained as a nurse, recognising the spiritual needs of your patient, whether religious or otherwise, was one of the essential parts of assessing and care planning. Providing appropriate spiritual care is in the BMA professional guidelines, it is in the NMC code of conduct, it is (in Scotland at least) a requirement that all Health Boards draw up clear guidelines and training in spiritual care. It is, like it or not, and always has been an essential part of good healthcare. You may not want it, and you don't have to have it, but other people do.

Once again, it is not about foisting anything on anyone, it is about responding to a genuinely expressed need in some patients. Why is that a problem? If someone thinks prayer could help them, and they want the doctor, nurse or whoever to pray with them, why is that a bad thing? You personally may think that is rubbish and nothing to do with healthcare, and you are entitled to your opinion, but it is not up to you to say what another person should or should not have by way of support from their GP, nurse, midwife or whatever.

Spamhead which of us is your post actually directed at? The "this is not about you" stuff... Then maybe whoever you are talking to can respond.

Fatslag that's the problem isn't it. And how do you know that the "offer of prayer" is sonething that coincides with the patients particular set of beliefs.

FWIW there was a hoo-ha about people going onto the wards at our local hospital and handing out religious leaflets - but wouldn't you know it I can't find the story now...

Rubberduck - I think it's just pretty random really. No correlation at all. Religion and prayer are the perfect example of the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy (after this, therefore because of this) - it's the association of discrete portions of data which, in fact, have no association... Or, put another way - a perceived correlation does not equal a causation unless proven to do so. It's like linking the number of people eating foccaccia bread to the number of people watching Doctor Who - both can be shown to have risen steadily between 2005-08, but there is no actual automatic link between them.

Spamhead, your argument demonstrates perfectly the "fish" mentality of religion. I've always found it appropriate that the fish is a Christian symbol, because religious people "swim" in religion - it's their natural habitat and they are surrounded by it. They (almost physically) can't step outside it and see it as someone "alien" to religion would. I think Rhubarb said on here (one believer with whom I have had some quite courteous exchanges) that you "just can't not" believe. I understand that. I think that's as good a way as any of explaining it to an atheist.

Conversely, atheists need to find ways of explaining to a religious person what it is like being us. What we often do (and for which I am often roundly berated for being "rude", inexplicably), is to compare your "thing believed without evidence" with another "thing believed without evidence" - to illustrate how odd and strange and daft religious belief appear if you are outside it. (Or if you are, to continue the metaphor above, on land. Or in a boat. ) So we choose things which are deliberately ridiculous like the Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Or, to put it another way, wouldn't you find it odd if a doctor said: here are your antibiotics, and as I think it'll help too, I can [wave a crystal at you/ offer a sacrifice to Apollo/ make an incantation to the Lizard Men/ delete as applicable] ?

Not all patients are religious. Some are actively non religious.

Not all medical staff are religious. Some are actively non religious.

Not all religious patients have the same religion. Ditto medical staff.

Members of some religions may find offers of prayers from members of other religions insulting.

Some medical conditions may make religious medical staff very uncomfortable.

Five good reasons not to confuse religion and health care.

Certainly I don't believe that if one Christian in need patient clicks with another Christian in need nurse there should be disciplinary action because the two of them have talked about faith.

But given the five previous possibilities I have listed, I still think it's better kept out of healthcare. And if some want to defend a nurse's right to offer prayer without being disciplined, I want to defend my right as an atheist patient for religion not to be mentioned around my bed.

It's not about you if you who don't want anything to do with religion. As simple as that. No-one should be hassling you about prayer unless you express that you want to be prayed for. End of story. And clear guidelines and good training is all that is needed.

I think your second question LovelyTinofSpam - is a good one. A good doctor or nurse should be able to recognise clearly when a patient is raising a spiritual concern,and know where to refer (i.e. a Chaplain), or if they feel competent to do so (i.e. they are properly trained) to deal with it themselves.

I am frankly mystified by why so many posters here think that this simple BMA motion means they are going to get Bible Whipped!?

As much as I'm enjoying this everyone, I have to get an early night as I'm due at the hosp first thing for an elcs...

Have fun with the debate and don't forget to pray for me UQD I'd like a lizard man/crystal incantation combo from you if at all possible

Will check in when I'm home and hopefully in one piece

where do you find these doctors who have spare time on their hands once they have given you the briefest of update on your actual medical problems? personally I find it hard enough to get my medical questions answered

Even if the patient asked (and as mentioned before the complaints were from patients who didn't) the doctor is supposed to be busy treating people. While he wastes time preaching what's happening to his other patients?

I don't want a doctor to ask permission because if I admit to a doctor that I'm NOT interested in his faith I could end up getting worse treatment. As it is I could be misdiagnosed because my specialist has a gap in his training that he had to miss because of his religion.

I am more and more concerned at the concept of religious GPs and pharmacists who do not offer the full range of services because of their beliefs. It's been said already, but it needs emphasising. There is currently no law that requires an area to HAVE a GPs/pharmacist that doesn't restrict treatment. We are relying on relative numbers and pure luck.

UnquietDad - I agree, most research on prayer is, largely, pointless, because it is trying to fit to different epistemologies together - or put it another way, if God exisits, why should he fit in with a research study? and if he doesn't exist, then you aren't going to find anything anyway. So, yes, take all such finding with a large dollop of salt.

fatslag - you raise very good points, hence the need for good professional guidelines - you cannot assume religion won't come up in the healthcare setting - in our multicultural, multi faith society it does more than it ever did in the past, but you can control how it is handled to avoid the problems to you identify.

UnquietDad again - yes, belief and un-belief are not easy to explain to each other. Grace (not just in the theological sense) and consideration and being willing to disagree in a friendly manner help. Walk a mile in another person's shoes is also a good principle. It is so much easier to stereotype than to listen.

I maintain my point that to avoid people being discomforted or threatened (or just hacked off) by inappropriate expressions of faith (religious, political or otherwise) you don't get far by just slapping it down, but you can go a long way with good training and good professional and Trust practice guidelines in these areas.

With that, I bid you all a peaceful goodnight

Good professional training = shut the fuck up about your own superstitions. Because it's not just a matter of being a christian or not - while some believers are merrily, bumblingly tolerant of all the other myth systems ('well, many of us have different names for the Celestial Teapot and It hears our prayers...')some are definitely not and, if devout subscribers to a different myth system, would be sincerely distressed if someone offered to pray on their behalf to a deity they don't believe in and ignored their personal preferences. A Jewish friend of mine was quite upset by a mental health care worker telling her to 'Let Jesus into your heart...'.

I'd have put it gentler , but I'm with SGB. The only religious training you need in the NHS is a sign over the door saying "leave it outside or stay outside"

I've come back to this late but tinofspam, you're totally right about the children in hospital, I wasn't thinking - was just thinking of how I'd feel myself.

But I still think there's a difference between hospital where the staff's views are usually fairly incidental to the point of being there, and school which is where you're supposed to learn stuff. That's why I'm so furious about religious dogma (not learning about religion from the outside which is fine) in schools, because it's in a context of facts being imparted.

Also re hoo-haa - yes there certainly is objection to faith schools/religion in schools and I bang on about it all the time on here! What I meant was official hoo-haaa, so someone getting suspended for saying "I'll pray for you" and so on. Complete overreaction IMO whereas I think teachers definitely should be kicked out for telling children "christ died for our sins" as if it's a fact, but in fact schools are not only allowed to do that, they're actually required to.

"The only religious training you need in the NHS is a sign over the door saying "leave it outside or stay outside"" - yep, that pretty much sums up my thoughts too

Unquietdad: yes I realise that, I was just being a little facetious

I think that you would be shocked at how may christian doctors and nurses there are, as many are drawn into caring professions by what they believe.

It just devastates me that peoples hearts are so hard these days.